AGRESSION ========= ME ----- Following on from Vance's dilema I was wondering if training in aikido can make you more aggressive or if this is a phase I am going through? (a serious question for once!) I've been training for about 2 years and I've had a few occassions recently where I have reacted with violence in situations where I would previously have backed off miserably or run away from and had a private cry (my ususal reaction to confrontation). On the last occassion I smacked a friend on the nose (admittedly we'd both been drinking and our reactions were slower than usual and he'd been winding me up all evening) but what disturbed me was that I 'intended' to hit him and to cause damage. The other occassions have been similar - I have been angry and reacted in a way to cause harm to the person who was making me angry. All of the occassions have been when I have been drinking (not drunk, just a drink or so) but I am a concerned that this aggression seems to be coming to the front when my inhibitions relax a little. I've curtailed drinking but I'd still like to know has anyone else had this sort of experience? Is it cos I started off from with a big negative in aggression and have now oscillated to the other side? Will I grow out of it as I continue training? > On the positive side, the aikido is making me more assertive, previously I used to avoid arguments because I have a 'cold' temper (so when I loose it and argue it takes me a long time to forget and forgive), whereas now I can argue and not be upset/unsettled afterwards. From: Mickey Tibbetts ------------------------------------------- Tricia, Of course I don't know but I would guess that you have some repressed anger and, now that you are getting some of your personal power back, it wants to be released. My thought is that more training, more training, more training, :) will take care of it. Yes it will calm down, especially if the alchohol levels stay relatively low. I have quit drinking altogether for pretty much the same reason but I don't really think that things have changed inside much. I still have repressed anger but I continue to train and reflect and, I suspect, that as long as I keep training I will figure out how to release this anger. At some point I plan on doing some work with a Hakomi phychotherapist to help access the anger but I haven't yet. Sounds like you're doing pretty good. Keep it up. From: aikixtal@mind.net (Krystal Locke) --------------------------------------- The same thing happened to me after a few years in Aikido. I found myself a bit more willing and ready to come to blows on some issues, and also ended up punching someone. Decked 'em, as a matter of fact. He wasn't being particularly aggressive, but totally annoying. He was trying to push me out on stage as the audience was leaving, I got sick of it, and spun around with a backfist. Caught his shoulder, but it was hard enough to send him to the floor. At the time, I got a HUGE adrenaline rush, not a bad feeling, but I sure didn't like myself afterwards. So, I know the feeling. I think that what happens, especially for women, is that after a time in any martial art we tend to become somewhat clearer in our boundaries. We feel more free and validated in standing up for ourselves, but we don't quite know where to place the boundary. Is situation A worth a fight, but not situation B? We don't know, because we've never felt capable of fighting in either situation, so sometimes we can over-react. I've thankfully grown out of that feeling that was causing me to be inappropriately violent. Perhaps it's also a phase for you, hard to say. Time usually tells, and relaxation and introspection help immensely. Glad I'm not the only person to have gone through this. From: Michael Hughes -------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Patricia Anne Matthews wrote: > but it's not really the question of getting angry (why or whether drinking > is a bad thing) that I'm concerned with it's my reactions to this and > particularly the fact that I seem to currently have got more aggressive. Do you mean more aggressive in your attacks or you're a more aggressive person in general? There is nothing wrong with either as long as you don't let it effect your ego and judgement. > Before I started training in Aikido I dont think I'd ever tried to hit > any one (and I definately didnt know how to punch). Now if I spend half > my time at training being uke and attempting to hit nage - isnt this likely to > make me more aggressive? It should and will. It will also make you honest. If you don't know what it feels like to hit someone and don't get hit yourself and don't feel that aggressive attitude, your training won't come full circle. You'll be cheating yourself and all who train with you. > and secondly, is dealing with a non-aggressive attack > different than dealing with an attack powered by aggression? Definitely. Most Aikidoist(and practitioners of other MA) don't give or receive honest and aggressive attacks. For example, take your basic ikkyo, let's say ura version(from a choke attack). Have your uke come at you normal speed and do the technique. Now find one of your friends who you know will really choke you and tell them to go full speed and power. They don't know what's gonna happen. All they're conentrated on is getting to your neck. That's an honest and aggressive attack. Let me know if you find out what I'm talking about. From: Terry Roberts ---------------------------------------- Hi Tricia, > I've been training for about 2 years and I've had a few occassions >recently where I have reacted with violence in situations where I would >previously have backed off miserably or run away from and had a private >cry (my ususal reaction to confrontation). On the last occassion I >smacked a friend on the nose (admittedly we'd both been drinking >and our reactions were slower than usual and he'd been winding me up all >evening) Another aspect of this situation that you might want to look at is the behavior of your "friends." I don't think I've gotten angry or miserable with my friends in years; even when they challenge my thinking, they do it in a positive, respectful way. It sounds like at least this one person was deliberately pushing your buttons. Are these really the folks you want to spend your time with? Maybe there are better folks to hang out with? (Just asking. You obviously have lots more information than I have.) In response to your question about whether practicing aikido might result in more aggression, I do have experience with it resulting in more assertiveness. One time several years ago I was at a meeting (no alcohol around, fortuately), and a couple guys got into a childish argument and a shoving match. Knowing that the situation wasn't *really* dangerous, I immediately waded in and tried to separate the guys. Eventually, another man joined me, and we stopped the scrap. What was interesting, though, was that the entire rest of the room was shocked and immobile. I was the smallest woman in the room, and I'm sure that I would have reacted like the rest if I hadn't had aikido. From: Neil McKellar ---------------------------------------------- Tricia writes: > Following on from Vance's dilema I was wondering if training in aikido > can make you more aggressive or if this is a phase I am going through? > (a serious question for once!) I think that it may be a phase that some of us go through (although I'd like to hear other opinions on this subject). I know that my karate instructor's teacher used to refer to this as "brown belt syndrome". :-) I know that I have also experienced times when I was definitely more aggressive (even when sober). The upside to this was that I felt I could back down right away if someone pointed out that I was being socially inappropriate. So I was more aggressive, but my ego was not as involved in it. I've thought about this myself. Many of my favorite instructors seem to have come to aikido (or even MA in general) after a period of socially destructive behaviour. In short, many good teachers seem to have been pretty rowdy in their youth. For those of us who come from more passive backgrounds, we are growing into a sense of personal power, some of us for the first time. This aggression, then, may be a natural part of this growth as we test our limits and flex our skills in social situations. From: Jeff Frane --------------------------------------- It seems to me that there are a couple of factors involved in what you're observing about yourself. The "aggressive" part seems resolved in your last paragraph: you are more assertive now than the person you describe in the first paragraph--who would have run off with her tail tucked between her legs. This, IMHO, is good. And the second thing is that you've discovered that drinking can screw up your judgment. If you hadn't been drinking, you could well have gotten really irritated with your friend (it sounds as though he might have been asking for an angry response), but not socked him one. (On the other hand, has he been a pill since then?) I love beer, and I've certainly been known to have more pints than I should. But I've also learned that it's a really poor idea for me to have more than a pint when I'm likely to be stressed or dealing with stressful situations -- I'm much more likely to bark at the kids when they're screwing off if I've gotten into the second pint. When I train regularly, on the other hand, I'm much better at dealing with stress in many forms (including whining, bickering, slothful kids). For me, the answer to your question is *absolutely not*; I'm much *less* aggressive when I train regularly. From: Patricia Anne Matthews --------------------------------------------------------- >> angry and reacted in a way to cause harm to the person who was making >> me angry. ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ Jeff said > this is a very key statement, particularly the phrase I underscored. Only you can let yourslef be angry.. - thats a very good point, as was your comment about being assertive - self confident is a better term, Aikido is making me more selfconfident but it's not really the question of getting angry (why or whether drinking is a bad thing) that I'm concerned with it's my reactions to this and particularly the fact that I seem to currently have got more aggressive. Before I started training in Aikido I dont think I'd ever tried to hit any one (and I definately didnt know how to punch). Now if I spend half my time at training being uke and attempting to hit nage - isnt this likely to make me more aggressive? It seems to me that developing a fully committed but non aggressive attack is a difficult process - and secondly, is dealing with a non-aggressive attack different than dealing with an attack powered by aggression? From: Eric Kammerer at Sac Net --------------------------------------------------------- Assertiveness and self-confidence are side-effects (or often desired effects) of training in any martial art. As with any new skill, it takes some time to learn to handle them effectively. Combine that with a situation that can loosen your control, and you have the potential for aggression. The cure? Just keep training. With time, you will be better able to handle the situation. As someone else noted, anger is a choice. Learning not to choose anger can be a time-consuming process, but it is well worth it. If each day, you do your best to improve your anger control, you will get better. Don't try to be perfect, just work to perfect yourself by making a continuous effort to improve yourself. If you've managed to stick with Aikido for two years, you already have done more than most people will do in their entire life. Just keep doing it. From: Scott Meyer Peimann <"SPGMV::PEIMANN"@SB3.SB.GRCI.COM> ------------------------------------------------------------- I guess the universe returned to him what he put forth, eh? Not knowing the fellow, I must ask what your relationship to him was and just exactly how much damage did you intend to cause? You were drinking (presumably together) for a while, usually a self imposed debilitation. You said that he was winding you up all evening, ok - you allowed this to happen. Why not just re-direct his energy to something more profitable? With the understanding that alcohol (see my previous comment about assult with a deadly weapon) reduces inhibitions and promotes uncontrolled reactions from within: 1) drink a little less (as you state below) 2) leave the situation, very few things are so critical that they can't be resolved when sober 3) select a better method of assult 4) learn from your mistakes and become a better person > All of the occassions have been when I have been drinking > (not drunk, just a drink or so) but I am a concerned that this aggression > seems to be coming to the front when my inhibitions relax a little. I've > curtailed drinking but I'd still like to know has anyone else had this > sort of experience? Is it cos I started off from with a big negative in > aggression and have now oscillated to the other side? Will I grow out > of it as I continue training? You have learned a lesson in life - don't release control in a (potentially) dangerous situation. Now, if I may offer an observation: In college I was a rather restrained fellow, very rarely entering into trouble with my fellow students. I did hang out with a crowd that was intensely self assured, however. These were the kind of people who thought nothing of committing the felony of carrying a loaded, cocked pistol to class in their pack. No one _ever_ drew a weapon or suffered a fight that I heard about, however. Certainly none of these people were imprisoned, even I would have noticed that. (asside note, I purchased my first firearm after college). Drinking was a waste of money and time. Now, I take a occasional drink at home. Very rarely out of the house. My diversions with friends do not require alcohol. Is this an attitued difference? I don't know. As a Free Mason, I have learned "Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, and Justice" are a way of life. Since I just joined that organization six months ago, I have found it to be quite compatable with Aikido. > On the positive side, the aikido is making me more assertive, > previously I used to avoid arguments because I have a 'cold' temper (so when > I loose it and argue it takes me a long time to forget and forgive), whereas > now I can argue and not be upset/unsettled afterwards. Love thy enemy, it'll drive him crazy. From: Jeremy Manson <100774.2136@COMPUSERVE.COM> ------------------------------------------------- Tricia wrote: >..Following on from Vance's dilema I was wondering if training in aikido can make you more aggressive or if this is a phase I am going through? (a serious question for once!)...< I remember one of my teachers remarking on how (some?) women in his class who had started out timid, once they realised how much power they had, became quite aggressive. In contrast I also remember Sensei Ken Williams saying that as you progressed you went through some big changes and it was not unknown for strapping male dan grades to confide to him that they had found themselves crying for no apparent good reason. I guess most of us hold back some aspects of our true selves. So perhaps as we become more confident we think ' to hell with it' and permit ourselves the freedom just to be ourselves, warts and all. (Apologies for the pseudo-psychology - I just can't express myself any better) To quote Tomm: "Once you chose personal freedom, you never go back." From: Huy Quang Nguyen ----------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Eric Kammerer at Sac Net wrote: > If each day, you do your best to improve your anger control, you will get > better. Don't try to be perfect, just work to perfect yourself by making a > continuous effort to improve yourself. If you've managed to stick with > Aikido for two years, you already have done more than most people will do > in their entire life. Just keep doing it. > [snip snip] > > > ---------------------- > Eric Kammerer > erick@sac.AirTouch.com > Isn't that the aikido we're supposed to be doing? I mean it goes back to another post i made to Steve Zimmerman, san, i think. That is the training we do is for spiritual or personal improvement. If i wanted to be aggressive, and destructive i would've taken jujitsu or something... but that isn't our point. I agree with Eric is that you have to continue to improve yourself, despite the things you've already done. So we recognize our mistakes.. but the best thing to do is not worry about them and try to improve the result the next time the same thing comes around. I'm not sure how Vance feels, but perhaps he should let go of the event that happened to him(If he still thinks about it alot). We can tell he didn't know how to control his aggression,and you can't blame him cause he wasn't doing aikido or something like it at the time. It's like damning people who don't know about christianity.... but thats another story. (don't flame me... but you know what i mean) Above all things... spiritual training.. for in and outside of the dojo is a good way to learn from the way i see it. When accidents happen and you feel bad or someone is hurt... just shows that you have bad technique/form that just needs to be improved upon. Thank god Vance felt ashamed at it... so its good for him cause he knows what he needs to be working on. But I dont' think there's any use worrying for continuing to be upset over something you've already done... Be like an uke and recieve everything in a form that you will deal and control with. From: Teresa Zeigler ----------------------------------- Patricia Anne, san, you ask; > Following on from Vance's dilema I was wondering if training in aikido can make you more aggressive...snip... On the positive side the aikido is making me more assertive, previously I used to avoid arguments...snip.. whereas now I can argue and not be upset/unsettled afterwards.< Over the years, I have learned to recognize (for myself at least) that although at first glance they may appear alternate edges of the same sword, I see very distinct differences between responding in ways aggressive vs assertive. As _ I _ experience those differences...... I find that my aggrssive inclinations are usually the result of my feeling totally out of ballance with both myself and my moment. Regardless of the specific, I've allowed my lack of centerdness to fuel a certain degree of agitation resulting in a confused state of impatience that demands immediate rectification. I feel directionless, undefined and somewhat primal (if I may) in my fear based reactions of uncertainty. And since everything even remotely associated with the moment becomes further suspect in it's contribution, I find myself ready to strike out in all directions for some futile attempt to regain whatever centeredness I can as my reference for calmness. On the other hand..... I find that assertivness resides from a clearly defined sense of purpose. Purpose alive with alternatives, attentive in the confidence of knowing the goal, excited in the focus that results are eventually obtainable. Some of the greatest single differences I see between aggression and asstertivness are those of motivational intent. I know that when I'm feeling the bite of aggressiveness, I'm usually self-absorbed with undefined hostility and little empathy for others. Not very Aikido like by my way of thinking. Whereas... throughout the lessons of our Aikido we are continually re-exploring the nuance of connecting with a greater awareness of confidence in ourselves, our surroundings, our partners, our community, our goals, our alternatives to hostility / anger, discovering peaceful resolutuion, as well as, our mindfulness of the infinite posibilites. Although a bit more philisophical than what you may have been asking, when I view Aikido within the entirety of how it can further benefit our lives......I don't see "aggression" as a part of the program. So....... I guess I'd have to say that IMO you can give into the occasional reflex of a nose nudge or two (especially when smitten by the whims of the brew) and still feel quite secure in the centerdness of your aiki spirit. From: Scott Hager ------------------------------------------------ I think Michael Speece made a wonderful response. I can add my own experience to that. Aikido has reinforced in me that there is no winner in a physical confrontation. Someone will be hurt in that case; depending on the strength of the attack, that could mean physical hurt. But injury comes in many forms and physical hurt seems the easiest to heal in many ways. There is an element of losing control on both sides of the confrontation that probably could be avoided. Aikido has worked for my in a way similar to Michael's experience of it. It seems the further I go in the art, the more centeredness I can maintain, the more I am able to "see" energy moving in the direction of confrontation, and the likely/able I am to make an assertive response to stop the escalation prior to strong argument, much less a physical confrontation. The awareness that there no win for either of us if we get to physicality is always in my mind and motivates me towards assertive resolution. Using the respect and courtesy we practice with one another in the dojo goes a long way towards ironing out differences at any point of an interaction. From: "John F. House" ----------------------------------------- Re Patricia Anne on taking up the peacful path and finding the urge to bonk the occasional wayfarer on the nose - Seems to me, Ma'am, that you are in transit. You've left an island where you dwelt timidly in quiet in large part because if you sang or acted unafraid and walked in the open the many bears might eat you. You'd rather live across the river where it is said that the lion lieth down with the lamb, and you can sing all you like without fear of ingestion. However, while singing in the canoe going across, you find a snapping turtle is trying to climb into the canoe and worry that it will bite since it looks mean and hungry. You decide that it is much smaller than the bears, and there's only one of it, and suddenly find yourself feeling fed up to here with being afraid of hungry critters intimidating you, and BONK, the turtle gets a paddle on the nose and departs. Oh gee, you repent, I was hoping to be a peaceful singer and now I've stopped singing and bonked a turtle most unpeacably. Will they let me in on the other shore? Sure they will. The above stupid fable is about having been peaceful out of fear, and the surfacing of the urge to bonk once you begin to feel less afraid and more confident. Bonking is not nice, and you don't like to think of yourself as similar to the people who used to intimidate you because they seemed in favor of malicious bonking. Being aware of the urge to bonk does not mean that you are becoming malicious. We all have it. Comes wired into the species. Virtue lies not in the one who is never tempted, but in dealing with temptation sucessfully. You don't like feeling angry or agressive toward creeps who bother you. Good. You bonk one on the nose to discourage rudeness. Less good, maybe. But far better than being unable to admit to yourself how afraid and angry you were, until some creep makes things so intolerable that instead of bonking his nose you smash you glass in his eye in panic. Even the bonk-ee will agree with that. The peaceable kingdom does not consist of a few predators and a declining population of terrified sheep cowed into submission. If you continue on the Path you've chosen with the good heart you've already displayed, and persist, you will find two things. One, which will take a long time is the technical ability to deal with such situations in ways that let you choose, deliberately and calmly as an exercise of moral responsibility, what you do or don't do with or to some less enlightened person such as your bonk-ee. By that time, like the person who asked the question about their Tae Kwon Do study and their religious beliefs, you will be able to kill, and you will be able to injure, and you will be able to control with pain without injury, and you will be able to control without much pain, and you will be able to avoid and deflect,, and you will be able to defuse and not fight at all - and what you do will be a free choice not driven by terror or unrecognized motives. That takes a LONG time, and in this life none of us gets perfect, though you have a very good chance of getting WAY down the road, farther than you presently imagine possible for you. The other thing is that along that path you will discover a great deal about the only enemy any of us absolutely must deal with - the one in the mirror. You've found out one thing about her already. She's not a bunny-rabbit (though those who've actually observed how real rabbits live doesn't use them as the image of cute fluffy peacefulness!). She gets angry, and even hostile and aggressive, and sometimes wants to bonk noses, or worse. Keep looking in that mirror and you'll also find that she thinks you should be afraid of her, and ashamed of her. and she fills your heart with doubts. Bonk-ees and bears are peripheral. Even the ones that kill us. Really. There is no comparative virtue in dying of pnuemonia at 80 versus being murdered by a creep at thirty. At the moment I'd rather not be murdered, and I don't like feeling pain; but those don't alter the point that whether bacteria or thugs do me in, at that moment the only difference is what I've done with the life I had up to that point. Aikido has a paradoxical virtue in this respect. It is one of the most difficult of the martial arts in which to attain high skill. So it is slower to arrive at Point One, above. By that very fact, it is among the best for arriving more surely at Point Two, above. The very difficulty of the art will show you your mirror.If you give it just a little thought, you will find that every practice shows you a glimpse inside yourself. You will get better at understanding what makes you tick, and be in a better position to make real decisions about who you are and carry them out, with every mile you travel on the Path. But you won't go a step, let alone a mile, if you don't first tell that enemy of yours that you are not going to be scared off by her sometimes showing you things you don't like (which are really the most valuable lessons, in disguise) - and that even though sometimes SHE is the one who deserves a Bonk, you are determined to love her at the end of the day. Sermon mode off, you may now resume consciousness... ;-> Regarding this discussion forum, I'm sorry to say that I'm taking a new job next week and won't be able to keep up such interesting but time-consuming things as this. So I must "Unsubscribe" soon. If anyone wants to contact me first think about why, for Heaven's sake! ;-> - and then use the signature line e-mail address, which I will retain. I've ennjoyed my brief stay here and found it informative as well. Hope to meet some of you on the Path! Regards, John F. House jfhouse@erols.com Summer grass: all that is left of warriors' dreams. AGRESSION AND RELIGOUS CONFLICTS ================================ From: "Robert S. Martin" -------------------------------------------------- Maybe I'm opening a door that should remain closed, so I apologize in advance if this is an inappropriate topic. Has anyone on this list ever found that by practicing his/her martial art, he/she was violating their religion(studying how to harm others, etc.)? Maybe it's not so bad in Aikido, but in TKD we learn how to kill people within the time it takes to blink your eyes. I'm not saying I personally wouldn't kill if I had to. A few people in my church who have heard about my training seem to have a negative opinion about me now, whereas if people (in my church) don't know about my training, they seem to accept me without any problem. From: Huy Quang Nguyen -------------------------------------- Isn't this one of those crazy paradoxes again? I mean here we are learning stuff that could possibly kill people, and yet the whole idea is to love all of creation? Personally i don't really care for people who think i'm evil or something when they don't understand the reasons why i do certain things. But I think that maybe since we know how easy it is to kill someone... the more we can appreciate how precious life is. I mean when i see someone doing something that is really deadly, i say "Wow... he/she doe's this or that and then i'm dead." And it tells you how easily you could die... And so i guess training in MA would improve our skills to keep us alive. Sometimes i think it's scary, but you know... there is also beauty in killing and in death. A sword cut that makes an opponent die instantly is alot more humane than a bullethole that leaves someone suffering for days. From: Sally Officer ---------------------------------------------- I think that some people have a strong tendency to turn different, uncomfortable, threatening, into bad, or even "evil". Usually you find that there is something in their past that has given them a bad emotional association with whatever is the problem. In my experience you just have to accept how they are feeling, and don't take it personally. If you don't insist on putting "the problem" in their face, and you treat how they are feeling with respect, eventually (can take years!) they will calm down and decide that maybe its not such an issue after all. Humbleness is everything Sal From burrows@asuvax.eas.asu.edu Mon Apr 1 21:15:22 1996 Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Hal Davis ----------------------------------- I remember being a bit conflicted when I was younger (I took karate briefly when I was about 14). Several areas of possible conflict come to mind for Bible-believing Christians (and, to a limited extent, I guess, Jews). 1. Bowing. Remember the story of Shadrack, Meshack, and Abed-nego? Their belief in their God prohibited them from bowing down before the king (or was it the king's hat on a pole? it's been a LONG time since I've read that). They refused to bow, knowing that they would be cast into a pit of fire. It's not much of a stretch to be conflicted about bowing (a) to your teacher, or (b) much worse, a SHRINE with idols on it (including a picture of dead man). 2. Meditating. Now I was in high school in the sixties, and we had seen/heard of meditation in only two contexts. First was Jesus praying and meditating in the garden of Gethsemene, clearly stuff associated with getting closer to God. The other context was the fad (to us) of Transcendental Meditation (TMtm), which was a means of mind-expansion and experimentation AWAY from the religious experience, and associated with pagan religions, drug use, Being Far Out, and astral projection. For those with that subtext, the meditation before and after practice smacks of doing a religious activity outside the context of one's chosen religion. 3. Jesus said, "Call no one Master," yet according to many translators (or at least what I heard some on TV and when I started karate at age 14) "Sensei" means "Master." 4. Jesus also said that if someone slaps you, you should turn the other cheek. That's not very common in martial arts classes. Now any one of these could be seen as an aberration and possibly glossed over, but when they so often happen together, the most negative aspects of one washes over to one's view of the other activities.