************************************************************************** WOMEN IN AIKIDO Thread started: Wed Jun 28th 1995 ************************************************************************** From: Jeff Frane ------------------------------------------ Denise Barbour (any relation to Doug Barbour?) wrote: > > Whatever it was all about, I'd like to suggest that many women > come to Aikido for reasons very different from men. However, in > our dojo, we find it difficult to get women to join. We presently > have six out of a membership of about forty. There's always been > an imbalance. However, the ones we do attract are very self-defense > minded. One of them is a Phys Ed teacher, another a former aerobics > instructor, a Guidance Counsellor, a nurse, a classroom teacher > and a business-woman. And this year we are hoping to produce our > first female shodan. Does anyone out there have any ideas as to > how to get more women involved in Aikido, or is it different all > the way over there on the west coast? > We have a similar situation, and none of us are sure why. In most aikido dojos I've known, there is something close to a 50/50 split between men and women. Our ratio is much like yours. It's possible that the very maleness of the dojo keeps women out, or it's possible that the emphasis on very hard training removes some of the appeal that aikido holds for women. (Jeeze, I *know* I'm going to get slammed on this one.) I'd like to know, frankly. From: Patricia Anne Matthews --------------------------------------------------------- Going to have to stick my oar in on this one. Our dojo currently has about 50/50 and the trainings not soft! (come over and see my bruises...:-)) The problem may arise if the 'maleness' of the dojo is perceived as 'macho'ness or even aggressiveness ? That always seems to be a big turn off for women - it can also get frustrating when you start if everyone you practice against is stronger than you, you either feel like they're patronising you by not attacking properly or you cant get things to work. (trust me men, you cant win on this one). Being weaker does have the advantage that you have to find the correct way to succeed, you cant kid yourself by muscling your way through. opps gotta go wave a big stick around.... Tricia Slam you dear?, I dont think my Ki can work at this distance... From: Mickey Tibbetts ----------------------------------------------- Denise, It is defintely a problem here in the southwest. I would love to hear about any ideas that anyone has to attract more women. We Need that balance to the testosterone (spelling??) poisoning we have at our dojo. From: David Suarez de Lis ------------------------------------------------- Well, this *is* a problem here in Spain. The ratio is 1/100 women/men if you have the great luck of having a women to put in the statistic at your doojoo. From: Stefan Stenudd --------------------------------- Here in Swedish Aikido the percentage of women in dojos can go from 10 to 60, but I think the overall level is about 30%. When it comes to high graded Aikidoka, though, the percentage is considerably less. We have special committees working on this - at both dojo and national level. Here's a few tips from our own dojo and from others: Show up your women - as partners in demonstrations and as teachers at the dojo. This is a very effective way to attract women to the training. Make extra classes for the women, taught by a woman - not necessarily very often, but regularly. This helps balance the usual male social dominance at the dojo, and the girls have a lot of fun - not just in keiko. Push the women to take tests for grades. It's common in the female psyche to first see her weaknesses, and in the male to first see his strengths. Thus, men tend to be more eager to take tests, where women wait and say they're not good enough yet. Usually they are - and then some. In teaching, it's important to teach by encouraging, not so much by critisizing, as women - and many men - tend to be overly self critical anyway. And watch out: even a very technical criticism, many a person can take as a general critique on her or his personality and overall ability. If the Aikido practice is hard or soft doesn't matter much to women, as far as I've found. But if the attitude is hard, "macho", women tend to loose interest - rightly so, I'd say. Generally speaking, it's my experience that a dojo which works well and has a friendly spirit, has no problem attracting and keeping women. Good advice for getting women to join is really the very same advice as for how to run a good dojo - for women and men alike. Greetings, From: Marc St_Onge ----------------------------------------------- There are a ton of factors that can affect the makeup of the average dojo's population -- geographical location, proximity to schools (all male/female college?), style of training, etc. At our dojo we have approx. 80/20 male to female makeup and have a very hard time getting female students. Let me add two more questions to this topic: * Does the sex of the instuctor(s) affect the M/F ratio? * Is there anything in the way Aikido is presented/taught that would make it unappealing to any particular group? From: Kevin Jones ----------------------------------- [I'm going to be forced to generalize and hand-wave in order to say what I mean without getting bogged down in details here. I hope my intended meaning comes through without annoying anyone :-). All of the following is very subjective and not intended to say "hah, we've got it right!" - if you'd like I could go on at length about what we don't do very well :-). In this particular direction, 10 years of history points to there being some validity in this opinion, I think. Anyway, for what it's worth, my opinion ...] I think one of the things that's most likely to influence this ratio, in any dojo, is the perception that one get immediately on walking in to the dojo for the first time. If the place appears overly "testosterone loaded" and closed to any but jocks, then many women are uncomfortable with the idea of becoming involved - not all, of course, but based on conversations with many people, I think this is a significant factor. I think it's this initial impression that's actually more significant than the actual vigor of the training and so forth. Many prospective female students both want and expect hard training but are still turned off if the the dojo has a "Rugby club" atmosphere (I can't translate that into a more globally significant term - maybe "locker room"?). So, they never get past that initial step and reject places that would say "but we'll welcome anyone who trains hard, male or female". We tend to have a pretty good balance of Male/Female in our classes - at the moment, it's almost exactly 50/50 (and has been close to that ratio ever since I've been teaching in a number of dojo on different continents) - and our training varies from "soft and gentle" to "brutal" depending on the focus de jour. I think we do always present the initial impression of a smallish, close-knit group (even when classes are at about 30 people, which is rare but not unknown :-)) where male and female are regarded as exactly equal in all significant aspects. We've had a number of people join us, over the years, who have later said they were very hesitant about joining a "martial art" but felt they were welcome and encouraged to grow to join everyone else - and this was enough to overcome the pain and bruises of the first weeks and keep them going :-). Some of these people have gone on to become very strong practitioners, able to practice anywhere with anyone, but they needed to feel safe/welcome to take that first step - without being patronized in any way. When I first entered a dojo, my teacher's two most senior students were female (and back then our practice was much closer to 30's style Aiki-Budo than anything else), so I accepted from the start that men and women, while having different advantages and weaknesses, are exactly equal within the practice of Aikido. This has always been my view and has influenced how I teach. I try to encourage the strengths of each student and to help them correct their weaknesses - and this differs for each individual - but I expect both sexes to be capable of reaching the highest levels of the art if given an equal chance. So this has always meant that our dojo has a serious feel but is not particularly biased towards male or female in its direction and so has, I think, an "open to everyone" feeling. So, not everyone is interested in practicing the way we do - thinking about it, we're a fairly demanding place at all sorts of levels and strange in a number of ways and that's not what everyone wants :-) - but there doesn't seem to be a particular male/female bias at all. And I like that and will always do my best to keep it that way. This has also always meant that there have been female teachers within the dojo after a while, and maybe that helps keep the balance too? Anyway, there's one opinion. I'd be very interested in hearing comments, other perspectives, etc. From: Alex Araujo -------------------------------------------- Stefan Stenudd has some good sugestions for attracting women to the Aikido dojo: > Show up your women - as partners in demonstrations and as teachers at > the dojo. This is a very effective way to attract women to the training. > Make extra classes for the women, taught by a woman - not necessarily > very often, but regularly. Our Sensei is a woman, and a very capable, graceful and friendly one, at that. We also have a small number of dedicated, regular members who are female. For some reason, though, we still have trouble gaining female members. Whenever we start a new beginners session, a number of females enroll, and invarialbe a much larger number of females drop out than of males. > Push the women to take tests for grades. It's common in the female > psyche to first see her weaknesses, and in the male to first see his That would not seem to be the problem in our dojo. Our Sensei encorages everyone equally to take tests; but she does not push anyone too hard. In any event, most of the females who drop out do so very early on, long before the first test is appropriate. > If the Aikido practice is hard or soft doesn't matter much to women, > as far as I've found. But if the attitude is hard, "macho", women tend > to loose interest - rightly so, I'd say. > Generally speaking, it's my experience that a dojo which works well > and has a friendly spirit, has no problem attracting and keeping women. I'm afraid I can't agree with that one. Our dojo works very smoothly, there're no politics and significant personality conflicts, and the atmosphere is generally very friendly and happy. There are no hard-ass macho guys strutting around, and most of our member happily attend the various parties and reunions we organize. Still, for some reason we simply cannot keep more than about a 20% ratio of female members participating... From: "Denise A. Barbour" --------------------------------------------------- In our dojo the sensei treats everyone equally, both personally and technically, and when he uses students for uke when demonstrating techniques. I respect him very much for that. One of our members is preparing for shodan - the aikidoka is one of us - female - and at the end of every class of near the end of every class the last half hour is devoted to her preparation for test purposes. The sensei always makes provision for a nidan or sandan to practice with her all techniques. But we never prepare only according to the test requirements provided for by the USAF or the CAF/CCA. The sensei thinks that would be too "preparatory" especially when Yamada Sensei comes in. Yamada Sensei very often changes the style of his testing and expects a lot more than just the few techniques on the list. Our sensei teaches USAF/CAF Aikikai Aikido; it is firm, strong, very technicallly-oriented, with a strong sense of budo embodying it. So the only slamming I should point out to you is what happens on the mat. Our first kyu female student feels very left out if she is not requested for uke during a class. But that is very seldom with our sensei because he realizes she requires to be a good ukemi student as well as a good nage student. > The problem may arise if the 'maleness' of the dojo is perceived as > 'macho'ness or even aggressiveness ? That always seems to be a big turn > off for women That really isn't the case here on the east coast - Northern Atlantic? We do have a few 'macho' aikidoka. Who doesn't! We even call one 'macho man'! But its a pretty big joke in the dojo. From: Chuck Gordon --------------------------------------- In my dojo, we have two women and four men (not including me). One of the young women is our second senior-most student. The dojo hasn't attracted a great number of female students, but then I don't really advertise either ... I don't actively solicit newbies, but don't turn them away either, so I don't actively seek out women OR men as students. Our dojo in Joplin, Mo., has had a tough time keeping women as students, and we aren't sure why. The dojocho there has actively sought female students to provide some balance, but few have actually remained for long. Currently, I think he has about 12-15 male students and 1-2 female. The thoughts about dojo atmosphere may come into real focus. When I was primarily teaching kempo several year back, the averages ran about 25% female and the attrition rate for female students was steeper than for males, but the women who did stick it out were very, very good and usually a great degree more dedicated than some of their male yudansha colleagues ... I believe that the presence of women in the dojo as seniors or instructors is likely a very real factor in drawing more women into the MA in general. Unfortunately, I've been in dojo that trated women students with "kid gloves" and thus created double standards, either knowingly or not. Most women (IMHO) would more likely feel comfortable and welcome if theyr were held to the same standards as their male counterparts. We've never distinguished between genders in terms of training or rank, though many schools I've known of have traditionally maintained separate belt ranks and test criteria for women -- somewhere above kids' class standards and below "real" (read that "male") standards. Some of the best martial artists I've ever known were female, and in a scrap, my experience would put money on a woman vs. a man if ALL factors (size, training, etc) were equal ... From: Gina Lehr ----------------------------------------------- From my experience, I stuck with my dojo because I was not made to feel inferior. Senior students are expected to practice with junior ones--male and female. I'm sure you've run across people you've been pretty certain just don't wanna practice with you. I think if I would have found myself the last to find a partner (my dojo is mostly male), I would have been suspicious. Like I said, I'm speaking from my experience. The "hard tough" stuff is something I had to get used to as well--especially giving Atemi. I didn't even know how to make a fist. I still struggle with the "warrior spirit" aspect, because as a female, I believe society has taught me that aggresstion in females is wrong, unattractive, whatever. However, I know an attacker won't be gentle with me! :-) Sorry about the ramble, but I believe the reasons there aren't more women in are many and are not always obvious. From: "Denise A. Barbour" ------------------------------------------------------- It is noticeable from the most recent past postings on this net that most of those who have disputed the fact that aikido is a martial art are male. I am wondering whether or not there is a connection or some correlation between that repudiation and the fact that there's such an apparent imbalance of men/women in dojos. I don't recall most recently an women aikidoka responding negatively to the issue, when it was being discussed, that aikido is most definitely a martial art. And further, some of the postings seem to be notably patronizing with comments such as "show up your women", "push the women...", "teach by encouraging", "...the girls have a lot of fun", etc. While I'm assured day in and day out that you "mean well", your overall growth as a consequence of your aikido years of training leaves much to be desired. Yamada Sensei some years back was not especially impressed by "Focus on Women" seminars - and I've noted these discussed on this listserv. At first I thought he was not with it. But last fall during a registration night I recall my sensei discussing the matter stating that Yamada Sensei felt that "focusing on women" only contributed to perpetuating that old patronizing, condescending attitude and a wider lack of women participation in a martial art that was meant for all to practice together. From: Karen Anderson --------------------------------------------- I'm going to poke my newbie nose in here for a bit - based on my experience as a female. :) The "problems" that seem to be going on with why women don't stay on or continue may be on a more subtle level as well. First of all, it's pretty obvious that men and women are different sizes, shapes and weights. MOST of the time the man is going to the bigger/stronger side of the pair. The point is, both people are aware of this and react to situations based on this. As a woman, when partnering with a man in class I expect one of three types of treatment: 1. He isn't as aggressive as he would be with another man [for a number of reasons]. He could be anything from condescending and macho about it to not realizing it at all - it's very subtle but it's there nonetheless. 2. He makes it difficult for me based on the differences by being too aggressive or somehow overplaying the difference *because* I'm female. [This would happen consciously...] 3. He ignores the difference and treats me according to my skill level - or lack thereof. I think men have a very difficult time avoiding #1 - they almost can't help it. Just as women are [in general] raised to be non-aggressive, men have been raised [generally] to defer to women; or to just plain treat them differently. I *think* that women *probably* pick up on this particular area and can become frustrated after a while. How would you feel having people that treated you according to your gender rather than your skill and were completely unaware of it? At first you may say that it's easily forgiveable; then you start realizing that they can't see what's happening and things don't change. So after a while it's just not enjoyable anymore. This is just more input into an area that already has some very valid points. I, personally, don't find these or any of the aforementioned "problems" within our dojo. I'm a beginner and I feel that any 'kid glove' treatment I get is based on that. The men in the dojo certainly don't "feel" any different than the women! I feel that maybe this attributes to the "open" feeling that Sensei Jones mentioned. From: Robert Pierce ------------------------------------------------- This has been a very interesting thread. At least 40% of the members at my current dojo are women. Three Senseis run the school and they are all the same rank (4th Dan). One of them is female. During her classes there is a definite increase in the number of female students. All students are invited to train at their level. Ability, not gender is the yardstick we use. It feels very balanced. My 2 cents worth. From: James Acker ----------------------------------- >First of all, it's pretty obvious that men and women are different sizes, >shapes and weights. MOST of the time the man is going to the bigger/stronger >side of the pair. As I understand it generally speaking (as we always do when talking about groups of people) this means women also progress faster then men as men have more tendancy to muscle through a technique because it's easier than learning proper technique. I have experienced this in my dojo as well. >The point is, both people are aware of this and react to >situations based on this. As a woman, when partnering with a man in class I >expect one of three types of treatment: >1. He isn't as aggressive as he would be with another man [for a number of >reasons]. He could be anything from condescending and macho about it to not >realizing it at all - it's very subtle but it's there nonetheless. >2. He makes it difficult for me based on the differences by being too >aggressive or somehow overplaying the difference *because* I'm female. [This >would happen consciously...] >3. He ignores the difference and treats me according to my skill level - or >lack thereof. > Maybe so but you are guessing. Most of the above applies to anybody gender aside. A result of always switching partners means that you have to adjust and try and go at the level of each partner. Not having a lot of belt colors I usually underestimate unless I know the ability of my partner from training together. I think a skinny guy, an athletic looking guy, an overweight guy, and older guy, etc. would all perceive the same thing for a different reason...mainly your reason #3. I get partners that "percieve" that I am pretty new and go way too easy on me. I get the opposite too. I think the BIGGEST single thing in all of this is talking. You CAN talk to your partner and say "do the grab harder" or "sorry, my ukemi isn't all that good with this technique, could you take it a little easier on the throw?" or "more commitment on the attack please". I give and take these and try to adjust. As a newbie I have had a woman partner that maybe (it's always risky to assume you know why someone treats you a certain way) thought that since I am a man she could go all out on me. Not so. She did shihonage on me that I really couldn't keep up with and it hurt. I ended up having to repeatedly ask her to take it a little easier on me. After a few times she adjusted. The problem is now she goes too easy on other techniques where I'm better and could take a little more power,so I have to say that too. This also happens with male partners. I must add that I train in Norway, and had a visiting co-worker (a woman that has trained in aikido for over 11 years!) train for a night at our dojo. I am kind of proud that she mentioned that the attitudes of the maile aikidokas was so positive and even. So I probably have a skewed view on this. It might be a little different in America. I still think talking to the partner is the best bet though. As you said.. some of the men might not realize they are doing anything different with you. Mention it once and they might realize and change it. From: Tom Wheeler ----------------------------------------------- >It is noticeable from the most recent past postings on this net that most >of those who have disputed the fact that aikido is a martial art are >male. I am wondering whether or not there is a connection or some Interesting observation.... >And further, some of the postings seem to be notably patronizing with >comments such as "show up your women", "push the women...", "teach by >encouraging", "...the girls have a lot of fun", etc. While I'm assured >day in and day out that you "mean well", your overall growth as a >consequence of your aikido years of training leaves much to be desired. The discussion was about how to get more women into the dojo, and the "show up your women", etc. were ideas for doing so. In that context I didn't read it as being patronizing. If it had been stated as "let the women show their stuff" it would be patronizing (the operative word there of course is "let"). Taking a step back, though, you might want to ask if it's right to try to attract more women to your dojo in the first place. IMO, while it's _desirable_ to have a good ratio of men and women, one shouldn't try harder to recruit women than men. >felt that "focusing on women" only contributed to perpetuating that old >patronizing, condescending attitude and a wider lack of women >participation in a martial art that was meant for all to practice >together. There is a very similar argument regarding race issues. Some people have argued that by giving blacks and other minorities special status - lowering requirements, quotas, preferential treatment - and concentrating on _race_ rather than individuals themselves - that we have done them a disservice, implying that they are unable to compete on an equal footing and widening the gap between the races by focusing on racial, rather than individual, personal characteristics, and I'm sorry about the terribly run-on sentence. In short, treat everyone as equals (which is different from treating everyone equally!) and let the chips fall where they may.