Ukemi classes? ============== Thread began Fri Aug 18 18:24:35 1995 From: Jim Summers ------------------------------------------------- NEW THREAD (Mat Based): How often do you practice ukemi *only*. A member of our dojo was just (possible severely) injured by an improper shihonage by a 4th kyu (i.e. he should have known better). How often do your sensei reiterate both basic safety ukemi and technique-specific ukemi? What about specific formal instruction on how to make safer as nage, and how to protect yourself as uke? I don't mean a one or two second speech, "Be sure to bring the hand to the shoulder or you might injure them", or "If nage doesn't bring the hand to the shoulder, you would have to do highfall." I mean detailed instruction for nage as to the possible damage he could inflict, and how to avoid it (if he so wishes), and instruction for uke on how to protect the arm. I am thinking of shihonage in particular here, as it seems that beginners can do some serious damage with this very easily (i.e. if they do it incorrectly). This differs a bit from nikkyo or sankyo, where you can do a lot of damage, but you have to have good technique to cause the injury; with shihonage being careless on the throw can really damage the rotary cuff or the elbow. Comments? Suggestions? How often do you focus just on ukemi? From: Lee Escobar --------------------------------------------------- Our constant reminder is to have a "perfect practice" -- no injuries. Sensei always tells us that an injury in the dojo is a shame for him. We receive a lot of instruction in safe throwing and falling, sensei usually volunteering/demonstrating first. I believe ukemi-only practice is builds confidence for nage and uke. Maybe we do kokyu nage all night, (or other "easy" make-you-roll-nothing-flashy technique) gradually building from static, to uke approaching, to nage going to get uke. Uke practices by taking ukemi, helping/showing nage how the throw should feel. Later, nage can repeat the movement with confidence knowing that he can do it, and uke can take care of himself. From: Mark Dulyanai --------------------------------------------- In the dojo i started at, U.C. Riverside, there was an optional but ecouraged class taught during the first 2-3 weeks of the quarter that focused on ukemi. All levels were encouraged to attend. UCR dojo is "soft" in its approach to Aikido, so "high" ukemi wasnt taught in this class. However, we did focus on basci forward and backwards rolls, and being able to properly take ukemi from various arts, and did stress what damage could be done by the various arts (these were occasionally refered to as "owees" :-o). Saftey was also stressed in the class, including telling nage things like "I can't take high falls", "My left wrist is sore from typing, can you be carefull with it?". At the dojo that I'm training at here in Sacramento, havent been to the "beginning" classes (darn work, seems to get in the way all the time), so i cant give a viewpoint... I find that while being uke i pick-up on things i wouldn't normally see if i were just watching the art being demonstrated. Also, by maintaining contact as uke, i also find myself maintaining contact when i'm nage (funny how that works?) Anybody else have the same experience? From: "Dean C. Harris" ----------------------------------------- Damn, that's really bad when it happens. It has happened to *me* as well. I wish that person the best of luck in recovery. Was this 4th Kyu working with a lower rank who got hurt? Was the injured person far away when Nage striked down with that persons arm? Thankfully, during beginner classes our Sensei has spent whole classes on the importance of Uke and taking proper Ukemi as well as knowing the difference between true DEDICATION and just plain speed. You can be a very dedicated uke and go very slowly. Matching the speed (oops! I should state the amount of energy/dedication) of the attack is very important. In *very* general terms I've had the analogy of the spoke and wheel told to me mant times. You must be attached to the nage throughout the technique. Be close to the nage and you must must must be dedicated all the way through. To just throw the strike then stop when nage gets your hand will put you in a really dangerous position. Not aimed toward you, but kind of towards your question/statements. >I am thinking of shihonage in particular here, as it seems that beginners >can do some serious damage with this very easily (i.e. if they do it >incorrectly). This differs a bit from nikkyo or sankyo, where you can do >a lot of damage, but you have to have good technique to cause the injury; >with shihonage being careless on the throw can really damage the rotary >cuff or the elbow. YES they can. Interesting you brought this up because last night we did some Shihonage and I was working with a white belt. I've worked with him before which helps. He was going at a somewhat quick pace. I told him I had gotten hurt and asked him if we could please slow down. I pointed out after he did a very good from my point of view Shihonage on my left arm that the injury occured there. I rolled up my sleave which I *should have* done prior, but the injury was pretty well healed (or so I thought until a shihonage brought it out) I know I always want my arm RIGHT NEXT TO MY HEAD. Not outstreatched away. And I work my butt off to make sure I fall as much in front of nage as possible. I think it is a mistake (as nage) to just turn after you get the hand then strike down like sword. The intent should be to "strike" his arm back to his head-not *away* from it. In fact once you have uke's balance and you have a good solid extention on the arm you should be facing them. It's hardly even necessary to strike down. Once you have the balance you can simply extend forward a bit and they will fall. Not saying that's proper technique...just an insight a sempai gave me. Anyone can crank down on an arm...but testing uke's balance withing fine lines and taking away the balance with a hip movement takes more skill and sensitivity to uke and the whole relationship then just cranking down on the arm. So as nage the INTENT should be to get a good extension and put uke's elbow into the head of uke. This doesn't happen but the closer to their head the better (IMHO) for practice. Then a strike down your center in a dedicated way but not in the totally apeshit manner in which some do it. As uke and taking ukemi I know he/she will stike throwing me down to their center. Well, that's where I'm headed!!! Of course there is a fine line between going with the technique and anticipating and going through the motions. While working with the white belt as he did my injured side after I told him I followed through, *but* he stopped before striking down for some reason. Eeek! Silly me...I went down and he had my arm up there and I was down there. Luckily he followed a bit. I think that was poor ukemi on my part, but as you stated beginners can easily hurt someone with Shihonage- I know first hand. I think once someone gets hurt they think *a lot* more about taking proper ukemi. I know I did. From: tomm ------------------------------------- Jim, At our dojo we have at least one ukemi only class a month, beginner and advanced. Other than that our sensei emphasizes ukemi a great deal. He pays a lot of attention to showing us to not only be cautious with our ukes, but how to protect ourselfs ukemi-wise from overzealous seminar attendees and others who might tear our limbs off (intentionally or not). From: Roger Plomish ----------------------------------------------- Dear Jim, Injury to Uke is a big problem in Aikido. One way is to teach Uke's movement with the same importance as Nage's movement--for every technique. Skill at Uke is the real skill of Aikido. My suggestion would be to find a teacher who teaches both Uke's movement as well as Nage's--with equal importance. Hope this helps. From: Robert Rowzee ------------------------------------------------- Jim, I make it a point to devote one or two classes a month entirely to ukemi. I will get another yudansha and let them throw me all they want. I practice my ukemi and they get to practice any technique they want. They usually reciprocate by taking ukemi for me all night long. From: Addison Larreau ------------------------------------------------- I study Takemusu Aikido with David Tift Sensei at his dojo Takemusukai; Tift Sensei starts new students with front and back rolls, as well as back breakfalls the very first class. While there are separate classes for beginners and more experienced students, all students are encouraged to attend, and assist with, the beginners class. Typically, classes begin with ukemi skills exercises (e.g. front rolls in any requested direction from hanme (sp?), partner breakfall practice, slow execution of very basic throws (so uke is forced to follow nage and to position his/her body properly to absorb the techneque (sp?)), etc.), and then we move into the body of techneque to be studied during classes. Another factor that I feel helped my ukemi (rough as it still is) is the fact that I started participating in randori towards the end of my first month. While this was very slow randori, I still was put in situations in which I needed to use different types of ukemi in a relatively short period of time. Not only does this type of randori experience help beginners, but it helps more experienced students learn to flow with the often clumsy movements of beginner nage and to match the speed and force of their techniques to the abilities of beginner uke. Nearly every class that I have attended has ended with some type of randori, as do all of the kyu exams that Tift Sensei conducts. (For those of you wincing, in my short time at Takemusukai (8 months, gokyu) I have yet to witness a randori related injury that needed more than a band-aid or a few minutes sitting out. :-)) A third (and final -- I promise!) factor that I feel has helped my ukemi is that we also spend time on Judo and p/k skills. This helps in two ways; one, it let's us learn how to both attack (in the atemi sense of the word), as well as deal with these types of attacks, and two, it helps us learn to take ukemi when (if?) techniques are not properly executed (read "protect one's body when techneque is not perfect"). (As a side note, given Tift Sensei's background in Shotokan and Judo, kyu exam randori falls under three categories -- Aiki randori, Judo randori, and Karate randori.) From: Michael Martin --------------------------------------------- I have had a bit of experience teaching beginners at a couple of dojos, and it is my general belief that it is best for all concerned to give newbies some training in tai-sabaki and ukemi (rolls) before letting them loose on the mat. Here in Hong Kong, I frequently drift down to the mukyu end of the mat to introduce myself and run through the basics with newbies. Interestingly enough, sometimes a few gokyu join in on the lessons. Also, Cottier Sensei will often split the class into two groups and have the yonkyu and lower grades do a more basic techniques with simplier ukemi while the "senior grades" (his phrase) do something a bit more complex. When going through tai-sabaki, I explain that the idea is to move "naturally" and cleanly. I also go over the various names for the body movements, saying that the names help explain how to do techniques during class. Once it seems people have the movements under (some) control we move on to rolls -- forward and back, building from kneeling rolls to standing ones. If there is time, my parting comments are about blending with one's partner and using common sense on the mat. I have a few "rules of thumb" for ukemi to help guide them in learning common sense. A sample of these are: 1. There are two safe places for uke -- far, far away from nage (as in several meters away) or as close as possible; it's not good to hang out in between; 2. Take the softest, smoothest ukemi possible; it's wiser to take a roll than to jump into a breakfall; 3. Keep your head up and your spine as vertical as possible; 4. Keep your eyes on nage; 5. "Claim" the space you are moving into with your whole body, not just your hand or head; 6. Don't fall until you have no choice, unless to remain standing places you in a bad place (see #1); 7. Stay as spherical as possible during a roll; corners and flat surfaces hurt. That's a nice start, so I'll stop there. Any additions or comments? From: Roger Plomish ---------------------------------------------- Dear Jim, Unfortunately, in Aikido there are injuries. Ukemi is the way that we REDUCE those injuries. I think the important word to remember here is "reduce." Everytime a fall is taken there is micro trauma to the human body. Over time this micro trauma turns to either macro trauma or debilitating injury. The techniques of Aikido alone, not including ukemi, do the same. In an earlier posting I mentioned that the Japanese have a saying about ukemi: Ukemi, Sannen--it takes three years to have ukemi skills. What is left out here is the trauma one endures while attaining good ukemi. Ukemi is required for at least 80% of Aikido techniques. And in Aikido one is encouraged to take ukemi rather than to avoid it. In other throwing arts, such as judo, often just the principles of the techniques are taught and one is not required to take repeated falls. Though randori practice in judo does require falls, the whole object of most judo schools is competition--and that means to resist rather than take the fall so that points will not be lost. Aikido, on the other hand, is not competitive, and people who practice Aikido take many, many falls. Ukemi should be studied thoroughly--all forms, all directions. Clear understanding of body mechanics is required so that even the inevitable micro trauma is kept to a minimum. Tough guys/girls who take falls measurable by the Richter Scale accomplish nothing more than impressing non-understanding junior students. Moving too quickly into forms of freestyle may well provide SOME natural ability with taking falls. Gleeson from Judo, in Britain advocates this. But this type of falling, unless done from relatively static positions, will invariably lead to disaster. Ukemi is an art form itself--independant from Aikido. It must be studied carefully, deeply understood, practiced as safely as possible, and, at the beginning, used in moderation. Great things are possible with advanced ukemi, but to get to the stage where these things can be performed requires a healthy body--not one racked with pain. From: Roger Plomish ------------------------------------------------- Dear Michael, Just one major comment. Chin to chest, protect the spine. Oh, and one minor one: Don't wait to be yanked to the ground, take the fall when you feel the pressure. Aikido is not a contest to see how much pain you can take. Go (fall) where Nage (shite) throws you. Don't predetermine your destination--it might be wrong. From: Steve Zimmerman ------------------------------------------- On Sat, 19 Aug 1995, Michael Martin wrote: > I have a few "rules of thumb" for ukemi > to help guide them in learning common sense. A sample of these are: > 6. Don't fall until you have no choice, unless to remain standing places you > in a bad place (see #1); Mike, I have a bit of trouble with this one. If Nage cranks on a nikkyo or a kotegaeshi really hard & fast, by the time you realise you have no choice, your wrist might be broken. When I visited the Aikikai Hombu dojo several years ago, some of the advanced students seemed to be playing a game that went something like this: "I will crank on a kotegaeshi as hard & fast as I can & you see if you can do a breakfall fast enough to stay ahead of me & avoid injury." Kirk Fowler-sensei uses an aircraft carrier fighter pilot analogy for ukemi. If the catapault can be considered Nage & the pilot as Uke, Uke must "fly the plane". For example, if the catapault fires and as the plane is speeding down the carrier deck, and the pilot does nothing, at the end of the deck, the plane drops into the ocean. If, however, after the catapault fires but before reaching the end of the flight deck, the pilot takes control to get ahead of the capatpault by accelerating the engine and pulling up on the controls, the plane takes off. So, at some point during the execution of the technique, Uke must take control of the "plane" (their body) and execute the ukemi in the safest way possible. I think waiting entirely for "cues" from Nage (especially a beginning Nage) can lead to injury. Steve Zimmerman Arizona Ki Society, Scottsdale From: Steve Zimmerman ------------------------------------------- On Mon, 21 Aug 1995, Michael Martin wrote: > I also have frequently had the problem of training with people > who do "fly away" ukemi -- launching themselves into often theatrical > breakfalls well before I ever did anything warranting such a response. Yes, these folks do lurk about! When I encounter one, I ask them to stand there. Then I launch some Ki at them & ask them to explain why they haven't fallen over. After my "joke", I ask them to please follow my lead. We have one student, about age 60. His body movement range is limited & he can only roll on one side. He launches himself prematurely, but that's his style; an exception to what we're discussing. There's a Ki Society sensei from the island of Kauai who is very "Ki sensitive". He follows your Ki lead. No Ki...no follow. If you lead right, his ukemi is wonderful. If you lead wrong, he sort of just stands there & looks at you funny. I think we're heading towards an agreement that there's some balance between "fly away" ukemi and ukemi requires Nage to do everything. It would be ukemi that takes its cues from Nage's lead but also requires Uke to take some responsibility for its proper execution. Steve Zimmerman Arizona Ki Society, Scottsdale