************************************************************************** SEIZA ====== ************************************************************************** Contents ======== 1. General 'How to.....' questions 2. The practice of seiza 3. Is Seiza bad for the knees? ============================================================================ 1. GENERAL 'HOW TO..' QUESTIONS ================================ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. How far your knees are suppose to be? and am I supposed to overlap Q the right toe over the left toe? Or overlap right instep on left arch? Q or don't overlap the feet at all? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's kendo seiza and iaido seiza. For kendo I don't know the recommended width. For iaido, seitei gata the width is one fist. This lets you start the kata with no warning. For koryu (MJER) start with two fist widths and close the knees to one fist as you start to do the kata. This is for men only of course, women must always use one fist width :-) Decorum and all that. (Not in our dojo though). Some sensei say to overlap the toes (left over right for calm over active or the other way if you're feeling aggressive). For instance Nick Suino recommends this in his book if I remember right. We teach not to do this, here's the experiment, sit in seiza with the feet together, toes touching but not overlapping. Have someone behind you step on your feet, now perform a kata. Next overlap your toes and have someone stand on your feet. Now perform a kata. See if you can feel a difference. A hint here, real samurai don't scream in pain. Kim "seiza who!" Taylor kataylor@uoguelph.ca Two fistwidths apart for seiza in kendo. If women want to be traditional, they sit knees together for modesty. You can overlap the big toes or don't overlap at all, your choice. Don't overlap instep on arch. I find it more comfortable to sit with the heels spread, as Kim describes for aikido people. Whichever way you arrange your feet, make your posture correct. Rotate your pelvis so that your gut is forward and your butt back, and make your back straight. Relax your shoulders. You can then take this same posture into any other kamae. gendzwill@SEDSystems.ca (Neil Gendzwill) ---------------------------------------- Q. How do you get into seiza ? ---------------------------------------- Again there are differences between kendo and iaido. I've noted that at the beginning of practice kendoka tend to have a lot of stuff in their hands so you can't sweep the hakama. In this case the class tends to go into seiza by stepping back, dropping the left knee down beside the right foot, then dropping the right foot back. This scoots the feet out from under the hakama. This is the point of all this hakama sabiki by the way, to clear it from underfoot so you can stand up at need. For iai, we are taught never to back up, ever. That includes sitting down in seiza so we move the hakama. The best way is to drop the whole body straight down (don't bend forward) until the heels come off the floor. At this point you can reach just behind your knees with the right hand. Move the left leg of the hakama by curling your hand just behind your knee, palm touches the back of the knee. Now turn your hand over and do the right side, again just behind the knee while lowering the left knee down before that leg swings back over your heel again. Timing is everything. The left knee touches the ground, you slide it forward ever so slightly and then lower the right knee beside it. Keep your back as straight as possible so that you can now flip your feet onto the floor without rising up again. In this case you have made very little noise and you have swung around a minimum (if you do the big swagger and swing from side to side you have exposed a suki (an opening) or two, you can check this by having someone in front of you suddenly shove you backward... do this on mats with a bokuto for when you fall over). You have also avoided sticking the saya way up in the air behind you like a dog's tail, and have also not exposed your bum to whoever happens to be behind you. Try sitting down like they do in kyudo some time, absolutely straight back, just sink to the knees without hakama sabaki and without stepping back, hint... take a half-foot step forward with the right foot first. We have a female iaidoka in Toronto who sits like this, it's really like "watching the dew settle on the grass". That's how you sit by the way, "like dew falling" and you rise "like the smoke from a campfire on a still day" Kim "seiza who!" Taylor kataylor@uoguelph.ca We usually just step forward with the right foot, then drop onto the left knee and then onto the right. As you're usually carrying a shinai in one hand and your men in the other, there's not a practical way to do hakama sabaki. If you just are holding a sword, you can use your right hand to clear the hakama as you are dropping onto your left knee. With your hand between your legs, gently swat the fabric out of the way first to the left and then to the right. As stated before, this is usually not done in kendo dojos for practical reasons. It's also a dojo-varying etiquette, so as always just watch what other people do and follow along. As for finding comfort in seiza, I usually recommend to new students that when they watch TV, instead of flopping on the couch, to sit seiza on the rug. If you can sit for 15 or 20 minutes on your rug you can probably tough it out for 5 minutes on the dojo floor. gendzwill@SEDSystems.ca (Neil Gendzwill) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. When one is in seiza, are we suppose to let the excess material Q fan out, or tuck it in between the thigh and the calf? -------------------------------------------------------------------- For iai practice let it fan out. For formal sitting tuck it in by rolling the wings toward the floor and leaving them just beside your legs, don't tuck them between your legs or they'll trip you if you have to stand suddenly. It is also awkward to do, all that bouncing up and down to get settled. I often roll the hakama and tuck it in when I do kaeshaku, just because it is such a formal kata. You should also bring your hakama in if there are lots of people in a line, so someone does not kneel on your hakama. I once knelt on a senior's hakama at an aikido seminar. The sensei called him out and as he dove to obey he fell right flat on his face on the mat. Red faces all around. (Actually, he should have stood up first, bowed, then moved onto the mat rather than dove forward to obey real fast but that's another discussion.) Finally, sweep the hakama in if you are going to put your sword beside you on the floor. Again, if you stand up your sword will not go flying across the room as it would if you put it on your hakama leg. As you can see, most of this etiquette is really for safety. Kim "seiza who!" Taylor kataylor@uoguelph.ca -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Q. Lastly, the following are two of my biggest problems. First, I don't Q have very flexible ankles, so when I'm in seiza, the places that are taking Q most of the pressure are the insteps and the knee. I notice that for those Q people that have no problems, their ankles are flexible enough such that the Q whole lower leg, from knee to toe, are touching the ground. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you watch aikidoka sit, they tend to spread the heels and sit between them. This gets their centre of balance down low and helps when doing seated techniques. For iai, this looks too slumped and is also hard on your knees since your lower legs are twisted. I try to teach students to sit with the heels directly under the buttocks so that the feet are roughly parallel to each other, not meeting in a V shape. This puts the students into a position where they WANT to stand up, especially since it hurts like the devil to stay with all that weight on the instep. The students sit much taller and the whole look is more alert and ready. The weight is on the kneepad and on the instep. If your ankles are flexible enough your shin sits on the floor. Kim "seiza who!" Taylor kataylor@uoguelph.ca ------------------------------ Q Are knee pads a good idea ? ---------------------------- Kneepads lift the knees and increase the pain in the feet. I have a bump on the top of each foot that gets flattened each practice but pops up again after an hour or so. Very interesting and it has a proper medical name, being something that develops with tight shoes. Kim "seiza who!" Taylor kataylor@uoguelph.ca ----------------------------------------------- Q. Are you supposed to sit back on your heels? ------------------------------------------------ As Wout said, put your nose over your navel rather than sitting back quite so far and you'll close the knees. Don't lean forward from the lower back, tilt the pelvis forward instead and stick the lower abdomen forward. Just don't forget and keep this posture when you stand up or you'll start to look like me, sway backed (with gut hanging down). I've noticed I even lean on my koshi-ita when standing around in class. Very bad habit. Perhaps Dave Green might have some more observations about sitting on the heels (or not). He's generally our best analyst of seated postures. Kim "seiza who!" Taylor kataylor@uoguelph.ca =========================================================================== 2. THE PRACTISE OF SEIZA ========================= From The Iaido Newsletter #12 May 1991 Seiza is a method of sitting which, in some places, is used as psychotherapy. It is a way of sitting on the knees that is used extensively in the martial art of Iaido. Practice of seiza can involve this art or it can be done simply as a sitting exercise. "Quiet sitting" using the seiza posture is a way to overcome the generalized fears of life and the underlying fear of death. It is an excellent way to regulate the body functions. It can bring the mind closer to the world "as it is" rather than its usual residence in "things as they should be". In other words, seiza is a method of breaking through the illusion of everyday life. When sitting, the endless cycles of thought which are so crippling to mental health are broken and the clean freshness of simply living in the world is allowed to come forth. To sit in seiza bend your legs and place the left knee on the floor. Place the right knee down about two fist widths from the left. Now flip down the toes and place the feet onto the floor so that the big toes just touch each other. Lower the buttocks down so that they rest on or between the heels. Straighten up and let the lower back move forward so that there is an S shaped curve to the spine. Rounding out the lower back to the rear or trying to sit back too far will cause muscle fatigue. The weight should be centered somewhere between the top of the feet and the knees, more toward the feet. The head is carried in balance on top of the spine. The ears should be in line with the shoulders and the nose in line with the belly button. Note that putting the nose into this position moves the back ever so slightly off of a strictly vertical position. In Iai this is important as it will encourage "seme" or pressure to the front. Pull the chin in slightly and stretch the back of the neck. This should feel as if someone is pulling straight up on the hair to stretch the spine. To find this centreline you can rock in circles from the hips, slowly reducing the swings until coming to rest in a stable position. This centering is important to prevent muscle cramps or fatigue while sitting. Another way to check the posture is to imagine a string attached to the top of the head on the inside. The string drops down inside the neck and trunk and is attached to a weight at the height of your tanden. If you bend your head forward or curve your trunk too much the string touches the body shell. If you lean too far forward or back the weight bangs into the hip girdle. Put the weight in the front half of the hara. Relax the shoulders and let the arms fall downward naturally. The right hand is placed palm upward on the lap with the little finger edge lightly touching the lower abdomen. The left hand is placed on top of the right, palm upward as well. The fingers should be together without strain. Place the tips of the thumbs together so that they are just touching with no pressure. The thumbs and fingers should make an oval shape around a point about 2 to 3 inches below the navel. This point is called the tanden or seika tanden and corresponds roughly to the centre of balance. The left hand over the right represents the calm ("Sei" or "In" in Japanese) aspects covering the active ("Do" or "Yo") aspects. The thumbs unify the two. The tanden is seen as the centre of being around which the Hara or hip girdle is organized. The centre is the point from which your life is lived. Variations of this form are sometimes used but this is the most balanced and relaxed method of sitting. Without tipping the head forward lower the eyes and look at a spot centered about one metre in front of the knees. The nose should be in the field of vision or the head has dropped forward. This serves to half close the eyes cutting out most of the visual input without providing the conditions to fall asleep. Place the tongue on the roof of the mouth and place the teeth lightly together. Draw the air out of the space between the tongue and the palate. This will cut down on saliva production and the need to swallow. Breathing is done in a very specific fashion and is the most important aspect of the practice. The ancient Taoists believed that breath was life and that each person was only allotted so many. Deep slow breathing was seen as life prolonging. Inhale easily and quietly through the nose using the diaphragm. The belly should expand forward while the chest should expand without any musculaular assistance at all. Keep all tension and muscular effort out of the upper body. The shoulders should not move upward at all but don't hold them down, simply let gravity do the work. Breath in until the lungs are full and no further, let the breath dictate the turnover to exhalation. Don't hold the breath or do anything special, simply begin to exhale. The exhalation is even more gentle than the inhalation. There should be no noise or fuss, simply breath out softly, letting the belly collapse. Breath out until the need to breath in is felt, then change over to inhalation. When exhaling don't let the belly go flabby, keep it alive with some tension or tone, without actually tightening the muscles. Never force the breath at any time. With continued practice the rhythm will slow down to perhaps two breaths a minute but don't try to reach any goals, just breath quietly. Following your breath, count both inhalations and exhalations or, later, exhalations only. Count from one to ten and then start over. If the count is lost, start at one again, don't try to remember the last number, it's not important. Getting to ten should not be a contest or a goal, just count. Any thoughts that arise should be noted but then ignored. Just look at them and then let them go, don't chase them or follow any line of reasoning. Go back to the counting. All thoughts have the same worth, nothing, when sitting. When sitting...sit. Return to the counting. The same goes for any light displays, hallucinations, panic, fear or other illusions. Simply sitting...sit. When the thoughts don't run so fast and furious you can drop the counting and just sit. If the thoughts become distracting, count again. Eventually, try to sit in seiza for about 30 minutes early in the morning and again at night. When starting the practice shorter times are advised until the legs are flexible and the circulation adjusts. If the legs begin to fall asleep, rise up off of the knees to allow circulation. Alternatively, roll up a blanket or something similar and place it between the lower legs to raise the hips up off of the heels. A small amount of pain is to be expected but don't make it a test of willpower to sit as long as possible. Ideally the sitting should be done in a quiet room with soft illumination and few visual or other distractions. Music is inappropriate since the idea is not to be distracted, rather than the other way 'round. Eventually the practice can be done anywhere with any amount of activity nearby. When the sitting is finished or when the legs must be relieved, bend forward from the waist and place the forehead on the floor while keeping the hips on the heels. Place the hands palm upward on the floor beside the head, now lift them up a few inches. This symbolizes being open (and accepting) to anything that the world cares to offer. Breathing in this position for a short time before sitting up again will allow longer practice times. There is a vast literature of self-help and meditation and there are many who are willing to teach secret methods of healing the soul for a price. All that is really necessary is a place to be alone and a few breaths. If some support is helpful then seiza can be done in a group but this is not necessary. Just sit...Simply sit. =========================================================================== 3 Is Seiza bad for the knees? ============================== Mike Renaud writes: ------------------- > > With December almost upon us,my mind turns to the upcoming misogi to take > place on the first class of the new year.I have been training for approx a > year now and am trying to prepare myself to attend the misogi at our dojo > which takes place on the first class of the new year but this event sort > of has me a little (spooked).... 1 hour breathing and chanting(for lack of a better > word) class while sitting seiza...I haven't been able to sit for > an hour on my own yet without quitting because of aching knees so the time > factor has me a little (worried). Does anyone have any thoughts or insight on > what can be done to help me out... > > After 3 months of training at the college in a sort of introductory class > we had a mini-misogi (1/2 hour or so duration) that I took part in and the > feeling I had once it was done (and the feeling came back to my legs) was just > great,but this 1 hour time has me (worried). From: Gary Porter --------------------------------------------- Don't worry. Your legs will not fall off. I have never known anyone to suffer knee damage, blood clots, permanent paralysis or gangrene from sitting seiza! Remember, before chairs were introduced to Japan seiza was the preferred method of sitting indoors while eating, talking, etc. My 2 year old son is sitting seiza unselfconsciously right now while watching "Barney" on TV without any apparent ill effects. My Sensei has always incorporated long breathing misogi on a regular basis, and I have found it becomes easier the more you do it. The fellow who suggested that you relax completely is exactly right. When the pain begins, the temptation is to tense the muscles of the legs, which constricts the blood vessals even more, which causes more pain, which causes more tension...... Also, as you breathe deeply, filling your blood with oxygen, consciously send it through your arteries to your legs and toes. That will help take your mind off the pins and needles feelings. It is best not to dwell on the pain, but rather not to think of it at all. Your fear is your real enemy. The victory we seek is victory over our selves. Misogi is purification of the spirit, and the method you describe is only one of the ways. Embrace the experience with joy and the pain and fear will subside. from: Nick ----------- >In the Aikido Fellowship, they're limiting the amount of suwari-waza >because of the number of people who end up with knee injuries. > >While I agree with the idea of sitting in seiza at appropriate moments >in the class (ie during teaching, and at the start and end of the class) >I've got a lot of misgivings about making people sit in seiza for hours >upon end. Not only because of damage to the knee joints but I've also >read somewhere (can't remember where) that sitting in cramped positions >for long periods of time can result in circulation problems and blood >clots (eg Economy Flyer's Syndrome). > From: Paolo ------------------------------------------- Having just started Aikido, I've often wondered whether anyone has experienced any knee damage or other problems as a result of sitting in seiza. I remember that my high school P.E. teacher told us that some types of stretches, such as hurdler's stretches, can lead to knee ligament damage, and sitting in seiza seems similar to doing a hurdler's stretch (especially when leaning back as a result of kokyu tandem ho, etc.) I realize that thousands of Japanese sit in seiza every day, but then again I'm sure thousands of hurdlers used to hurdler's stretches before being encouraged not to. I guess I'm wondering if anyone has any medical evidence, one way or the other. Especially because my knees have been a little achy lately. From: "Kannagara (Jack) " ---------------------------------------- Let's see, when I started Aikido about 3 years ago, I couldn't even sit 3 minutes in seiza without excruciating pain. Then as sensei suggested, I started to sit in seiza while reading, watching tv (relax during commercial breaks, and go back to seiza when programming comes back.) After doing this for about 2 months on a daily basis in addition to good stretching exercises of the angles and feet, I was able to extend my seiza sessions to 1/2 hour without pain. Now, I am able to sit seiza from 45 min. to 1 hour with only some minor discomfort. But I always stretch my angles and feet well before doing seiza, and concentrate on your breathing and not on the pain, sit upright with back straight and try to sit lightly on your legs/feet/angles, whenever you start to feel some pain, breathe in deeply and slowly exhale, doing this several times seems to help me get over the pains and needles and numbness (although numbness is unavoidable no matter what you do!) But just remember to slowly work up to it and not over do it the first time, try to sit 5 minutes longer each day, or even 1 minute longer a day will help you get on the way to long seiza sessions. In fact, I'm sitting in seiza now on my chair while writing and it feels just great. So have fun and have a Happy New Year's Misogi! From: This space intentionally left blank ------------------------------------------------------------- >> After 3 months of training at the college in a sort of introductory class >> we had a mini-misogi (1/2 hour or so duration) that I took part in and the >> feeling I had once it was done (and the feeling came back to my legs) was just >> great,but this 1 hour time has me (worried). > >Don't worry. Your legs will not fall off. I have never known anyone to suffer >knee damage, blood clots, permanent paralysis or gangrene from sitting seiza! >Remember, before chairs were introduced to Japan seiza was the preferred method >of sitting indoors while eating, talking, etc. My 2 year old son is sitting >seiza >unselfconsciously right now while watching "Barney" on TV without any >apparent ill effects. I used to do that as a child too, but after gaining a couple of hundred more pounds and a few feet of additional height, I find that it is very painful and I do lose feeling fairly rapidly in my lower legs. It seems to be a function of muscle bulk, body weight, and length of limbs (lever arms). Could it be that Japanese folks, being shorter and lighter for the most part, can get away with this sort of thing, while us big and heavy westerners can't? I haven't been 5' tall since 5th grade (11 years old)... >The fellow who suggested that you relax completely is exactly right. When >the pain begins, the temptation is to tense the muscles of the legs, which Every doctor I've ever asked has said, "If it hurts, don't do it". Pain is the body's way of saying "don't!" Yes, there's some pain from excersize, which is good for you, but the pain is a sign that you are nearing the point where you should quit, and it's much lower in intensity than the pains that say, "now you've done it!" >Also, as you breathe deeply, filling your blood with oxygen, consciously >send it through your arteries to your legs and toes. That will help take >your mind off the pins and needles feelings. It is best not to dwell on the >pain, but rather not to think of it at all. You could talk to C1 canoeists for ideas too. Their boats are the ones that look like one-man kayaks, but are not. In a kayak you sit with legs stretched in front of you and use a 2-bladed paddle. In a C1 boat you sit with your legs tucked under you (like in seiza) and use a single-bladed paddle. There's a difference in the shape of the "hole" the spray skirt covers, but otherwise the two are easily confused for the uninitiated. A book I have at home says that the easiest way to tell the kayakers from the C1 boaters is to look downstream from the white water section of the river. The C1 boaters are the ones flopping around on the bank trying to get their legs to work again... From: Jeff Frane --------------------------------------- I'm inclined to the belief that seiza, like squatting, is a perfectly "natural" position for the human body. As someone else noted, kids do it all the time without any instruction. It's only as the body gets older and we allow muscles to tighten, that it becomes less comfortable and less "natural" -- at least in our culture. Squatting, or hunkering, is the same. I was reminded of it yesterday, when I saw a couple of young SE Asian men waiting outside the DMV. Rather than leaning against the wall smoking, they squatted down in what for a Westerner looks like a very uncomfortable stance, but is standard throughout Asia and Africa. It can't be done comfortably unless the long muscles of the leg are well stretched -- but, then, if it's done regularly, the muscles *are* stretched by the very posture. I've seen shihan sit for three hours or more to monitor tests, and then get up, stretch once, and walk away. After sitting for an hour or two, I was once asked to take ukemi for a test, and when I stood, my feet felt as though they had rockers on them and I couldn't walk normally for 10 minutes or more -- but I wasn't raised sitting in seiza. From: Jeff Frane ------------------------------------------- Mike Bartman wrote: >Every doctor I've ever asked has said, "If it hurts, don't do it". Pain is the >body's way of saying "don't!" Ooops! Guess that lets out the martial arts. --Jeff Frane From: Chung Jayson C ---------------------------------------------- Michael Renaud wrote: ----------> ...this 1 hour time has me worried.My sensei said to just show up and do it and that in 20+ years of teaching he has never seen anyone quit or give up but has had a few swear at him for it.<---------- Maybe the ones who would have given up just chose not to attend in the first place. That would be my choice _if_ one would be made to lose face, as it were, for not pushing through the whole hour in seiza (you didn't say what if anything happens if you "give up" and change to another position or use a seiza bench). For me, there are aching knees and then there are aching knees because of deliberately putting prolonged, direct pressure on the knee joints (as in seiza) that weakens their stability and increases the risk of knee problems. No thanks. Of course, I am missing a golden opportunity to build character and grit. And this after I've already passed up the chance to commit to taking high breakfalls with every throw, no matter how unnecessary. God, I'm so weak!!! ;-) From: Charles Huff ----------------------------------------- This brings up a related question that I've been meaning to put to the net: There's a fellow at our dojo who insists that suwari waza is injurious to the knees. Now, I know that suwari waza can be painful (especially when you're not used to it), but is there any evidence of it being harmful? For what it's worth, I have some knee trouble myself (meniscus damage from an old running injury) but I have no trouble either with suwari waza or sitting in seiza. I often have *less* trouble with seiza than I do with any kind of cross-legged position, interestingly enough. From: Hal Davis ------------------------------------- Mike Bartman: >Could it be that Japanese folks, being shorter and lighter for the most part, >can get away with this sort of thing, while us big and heavy westerners can't? >I haven't been 5' tall since 5th grade (11 years old)... Good point -- but let's also add that most Japanese (from what I hear) spend a whole lot of time in Seiza the whole time they're growing up. I don't recall that I EVER voluntarily sat in seiza. And since I started aikido at age 40, sedentary, stiff, big of frame and overweight on top of that. I'd like for some of our more scientifically oriented physical artists to run some numbers on the pressures exerted on the knee in two scenarios. 1) A Japanese person of average Japanese height and weight, who has sat in seiza all his life and presumably stretched out all those tendons and stuff so that there is not much strain. 2) An oversize, overweight American who has never sat in seiza before age 40. He has probably twice as much weight (or more) on the upper end of his femur, the femur is probably 1.25X as long as the Japanese person's femur (increased leverage), the thighs and calves are probably 1.5 to 2 X the thickness of the Japanese counterparts, creating a fulcrum for the lever 4 to 6 inches back from the knee joint, pulling the shorter tendons way too hard. Come to think of it, I've seen a few tapes of sumo wrestlers, who are certainly both bigger and fatter than the average Japanese (and, I daresay, the average Americano) and offhand, I cannot recall seeing them sitting in seiza. Anyone want to correct me on this? When I watch my 7-year old son sit in seiza, I note that his slimmer thighs and calves tend to support his weight throughout the entire leg. No great mass of muscle and fat seems to create the fulcrum I'm certain I feel in my legs. I have a rather casual approach to seiza. My knees never bothered me before I started aikido, but they bother me a lot now. I think it's partly suwari waza, but mostly sitting in seiza. When my knees bothered me most, I sat out all sections involving knee walking or kneeling. Inside of two months my knees felt great. So, now, I just don't do much seiza. A limited meditation and bow in ceremony is all I've got in me. If there's a belt ceremony, I'll go to a high kneel (standing on my knees), sit anza, put a leg behind the guy beside me, and move around more than other folks. If it gets bad enough I'll be as unobtrusive as possible in standing and going to the edge of the mat. If there's a seiza bench available, I'll grab it -- even if yudansha are around who are not using them (I'm mudansha), figuring that the benches are there to make people more comfortable and to help us fat folks create less of a nuisance. But I guess the whole point of this ramble is that one can participate and do what one can, and then as unobtrusively as possible do something else when he can do no more of the former. OR one can avoid the activity becaue he is not certain that he can complete it. I think the second is too macho, and I have had no rancor from my fellow students and seniors for withdrawing when anything on the mat is more than I want to do. They may think me a wus and delay my promotion, but I think far less so than had I not participated because I might reach my limit. And I'm NOT going to intentionally injure myself just because someone may have a momentary distraction when I shift positions.