WHY INCLUDE ATEMI? ================= From: Rick Clark ------------------------------------------------- Todd: > kotegaeshi or any other million moves. You just better know enough to be > able to switch like that. Plus, you just messed up the essence of Aikido...a > nice fluid technique. Why complicate things in the middle? Why complicate things? Gosh I don't know? Could it be that O Sensei said Aikido is 99% Atemi? Could it be that in almost *any* technique O Sensei demonstrates in "Budo" it is obvious he is using Atemi? > All in all I'd say to ask your Sensei and senior students to show you where > and when it's best (if at all) to use atemi. You may find that not many martial artist realy understand Atemi- waza. Not just Aikidoka, any martial artist. Atemi-waza that is used to stun, knock out, or seriously injure an opponent is part of the arts that is rather esoteric and not widely practiced or taught. Patricia A. Matthews: ------------------------- > I always thought that the 'Atemi is 99% of Aikido' meant that the atemi formed > an essential part of the aikido technique that kept/encourages uke to move in > the direction you want ie. 'you dont go that way because my fist is filling the > space (or you move that way because my fist is going to occupy the space where > your head was ;-) ) rather than being used to stun, knock out or seriously > injure your opponent ? So there may be times when there are openings for an > atemi that arent used becasue it would cause uke to react in a way you dont > want him to? From: "Rick Clark" ------------------------------------------------ Well, *IF* a person is stunned or KOed it is very easy to throw them, or lock them or do whatever technique you wish...... Remember, what people do in the Dojo is "Do" so we don't want to harm our Uki. But I would hold that when you move *any* "Do" art to the street it becomes a "Jitsu". When you take it off the Tatami and to the pavement Atemi-waza is vital. At that point my concern if for the health and well being of myself or my family. I am forty grumbel mumble something:-) I don't get into fights like a 14 yr old kid. Or a college student for that matter. *IF* I were to be in a fight it would be a stiuation where my life was in danger, or that of my family. Atemi-waza is used to get your opponent to react in the way you want them to go. If you want them to go forward you strike a point that moves them forward. If you want them to go down - strike a point that forces them down. Or up or to the side......what ever direction you want. From: "John R. Murray" --------------------------------------------------- >From: "Dean C. Harris" >Plus, someone will react to a strike-which is bad IMHO. For example the >elbow to the ribs may be great and look impressive in the dojo when you just >slightly brush them, but in real life if you do have a hold of someone's >wrist/hand and you happen to start shihonage and elbow them in the ribs they >will likely convulse that whole side of there body taking there arm down to >protect that area involuntarily in which case you'd have to switch to >kotegaeshi or any other million moves. You just better know enough to be >able to switch like that. Plus, you just messed up the essence of Aikido...a >nice fluid technique. Why complicate things in the middle? Um, IM(ns)HO, with a shihonage done "at speed", and a nice hard atemi to the ribs going under the arm, the convulsion of the side of uke's body to protect the ribs fits very nicely into the cut down that finishes the technique. Moreover, it distracts uke during a common weak point in nage's shihonage (that d***able getting-pulled-over-backwards-just-when- you-thought-you-had-the-guy spot :-) as well as helping correct nage's position at that point, also. I concur with what someone else wrote, get your sensei or a senior student to show you all the "hidden" atemi in a (any, pick one) nice, fluid, classical technique. From: Joseph Toman ---------------------------------------- That's true. Also, I think that atemi doesn't really complicate things. It should be so natural to the technique as to be almost incidental. The analogy I have in mind is chess. In chess you don't move a piece solely to threaten, but because it develops the whole structure of your game. Similarly you don't stop in the middle of a technique and whack uke upside the head solely to see that glazed expression in his eyes (though that's sort of fun), you whack him upside the head because your hand has to be in that area to develop the structure of your technique, and his head happened to be in the way. > Remember, what people do in the Dojo is "Do" so we don't want to > harm our Uki. But I would hold that when you move *any* "Do" art to > the street it becomes a "Jitsu". When you take it off the Tatami and > to the pavement Atemi-waza is vital. At that point my concern if for > the health and well being of myself or my family. I would disagree with you here, Rick. If it's not "Do" in the street, then was it really ever "Do" in the dojo? It's easy to care about nice people, the real test is to care about scumbags trying to harm you. This doesn't mean your actions would be any less 'abrupt' or decisive, and certainly they would depend on your ability to deal with the situation, but the mindset behind the actions would be different. I think that's what "Do" is about. From: Rick Clark ---------------------------------------------- Like I said *for me* it "Do" in the Dojo and "jitsu" *if* I have to take it to the pavement. For me it's a mind set. *IF* I ever have to use my martial arts for real it will be in a "combat" mode i.e. life or death. I do not see any other reason to be involved in a fight. At the point my life or the life of my family is on the line I frankly do not care in the least what happens to the perp. He will be blending into a portion of my body with great force - all by their instigation not mine. They must accept the consequences of *their* action. From: Todd Louis Green --------------------------------------------- Dean wrote: > >At 10:37 PM 10/22/95 -0700, Todd wrote: >Exactly at what point are you using the opening [ed: in shihonage]? >Are you stuttering or pausing mid way through technique to do the atemi? >Would you still perform the atemi if 1) the initial attacker had a knife and >2) if you _knew_ someone else was attacking? Yes! The atemi is simply PART of the move. My understanding, from talking to a number of the senior yudansha, is that atemi are not an addition to aikido techniques, they're PART of them. See below for a description of this particular atemi, and you'll understand what I'm talking about . . . >Ask your Sensei to show you. Can you actually state it improved your >technique, or just helps you remember where your body should generally be? Both! >The only atemi I'd use while doing shihonage while _still maintaing the flow >of the technique_ would possibly be if my elbow contact uke's ribs as I pass >through. Once you pass through, and turn and have a firm grip/extension >there's really not much uke can do. Feel free to kick at whatever you want >so long as you have turned to see nobody was coming at you from the rear >initially. Here's how I "helped" my technique. Given an attack from uke's right hand [punch, grab, whatever], you block/whatever with your right hand, getting it near uke's wrist ready for the throw. Your left arm [elbow, forearm, depends] basically cracks against uke's outstretched elbow [don't try this at home, kids!] as you go underneath the arm. This has one of two effects: [1] Against aikidoka in class, I finally remember which way to twist my body under uke's arm so I don't end up with some bizarre hold instead of shihonage. [2] Against non-aikidoka who I've tried it on [yeah, my friends are trusting/stupid], they bend around so you don't HAVE to go under the arm to get shihonage. It's hard to describe in words. > >Plus, someone will react to a strike-which is bad IMHO. For example the >elbow to the ribs may be great and look impressive in the dojo when you just >slightly brush them, but in real life if you do have a hold of someone's >wrist/hand and you happen to start shihonage and elbow them in the ribs they >will likely convulse that whole side of there body taking there arm down to >protect that area involuntarily in which case you'd have to switch to >kotegaeshi or any other million moves. You just better know enough to be >able to switch like that. Plus, you just messed up the essence of Aikido...a >nice fluid technique. Why complicate things in the middle? I disagree here, Dean. I think atemi, if done properly, are part of that fluid technique. You specifically WANT the attacker to respond to the strike. That's the whole point! As one of the instructors put it Saturday morning, "Surprise is bad. We don't want surprise with the strike. You want uke to see it coming. That way uke reacts." That reaction [uke's block, dodge, or whatever] becomes part of the momentum you use in the technique. >I like atemi (in general) at the very beginning or very end at my level. >Again, IMHO there are very good reasons why Atemi isn't more of an issue >until you become more advanced. I don't do any atemi in shihonage and >instead concentrate on making the technique as succinct as possible. I find >sword/bokken practice helps this tremendously. As I said, maybe it's just lingering p/k'ness on my part, but the atemi really help me as a beginner. I'm not good at getting uke off balance, and though I practice it, I also incorporate appropriate atemi to "help." 8-) >Sure, they're scared of you. They see you come in an hour early to slowly >polish your beloved ASP and wonder why you are talking to it. Who, me? 8-) I only talk to it because it talks back. Just kidding. No, really, I was kidding. Please, put down the taser, I'll come along peacefully . . . Todd Louis Green ZenWolf@ix.netcom.com "There are no mistakes in aikido, only atemi." -- one of my instructors whose name, I'm ashamed to admit, I don't recall