BIG GUYS ANd LEARNING ===================== From: "Dean C. Harris" --------------------------------------- Wasn't sure what to put in the subject field. I was wondering if some of the larger guys would share their opinions on my desire to work with equal or bigger guys. I'm not really that big but not that small as far as our dojo is concerned. I'm 5'11" and 190 and decent shape...though the pinch an inch part of me is irksome. I'm finding I want to work much more with guys at least 200lbs or more or those who are physically strong. Why? Well, I'm not sure about Aikido in general, but it seems from our dojo most of the guys are pretty small. It's _somewhat_ frustrating to work with small guys for a while and get some false sense of my abilities or lack there of. Sure, most of the time I can tell if I'm trying to muscle though a technique. But it becomes VERY clear while working with someone with equal or better stength if what I'm doing doesn't work. If they are stronger it is not possible to muscle through a technique at all. Sure a higher rank who is much smaller and skinny can tell me I'm muscling my way through and I can tell. BUT it still works. Whereas, working with someone bigger/stronger will very clearly reveal my sloppiness and it'll hit home when I simply can't do the technique and they throw an atemi to let me know. So, that type of training _seems_ to me to be more succinct and efficient. Is this a bad thing? Is it a phase others go through? From: Hal Davis ---------------------------------- OK, let's not turn this into a Big Guys Anonymous session. But, Dean, you're right. I'm 6'2" and 270#. Right now I'm the biggest guy that comes to class regularly, although there is another guy that's a little taller and somewhat lighter that comes occasionally. A couple of months ago our really big guy moved to San Francisco (we miss you, Toby-san!), so I haven't had a really big guy to play with. It's hard for most people to grasp Toby's wrist, even without a little sweat. I get a lot of compliments from folks saying it's good to work with me, at least as a change of pace. Part of it is that the bigger bod moves more slowly, so it's a little easier to see things work. Another part is that if you're not pushing from your center you're unlikely to move me. I've tried to develop my uke-ing such that I don't take a dive, but I don't actively resist. That is, I try not to be at all combative, but I do require that Tori make the technique work on me. That means that sometimes on Tori's turn-and-push part of a technique, the system won't quite "cam over." If Tori tries to muscle through at this point, it becomes quite apparent when I outweigh them by more than 100 pounds. What I miss is the self-correction of discovering yourself muscling a technique. When my uke weighs half what I do, it's difficult for me to catch myself muscling unless uke actively resists. Of course, uke won't actively resist unless he has detected me muscling them and he wants to show me. Which means that my muscling only gets corrected when my uke notices it, as I never do. Unless I work with a big guy. I like the feeling of being cherished for the way my bod is different from the other folks in the dojo. Big guys get lots of kudos in other areas, but it's usually in conjunction with a real or supposed yang attitude (supposed ability to kick someone's butt). Here, I'm cherished because a bowling ball is interesting when compared to a soft ball, a golf ball, etc. From: Chuck Gordon -------------------------------------- Dean, I think wantin' to play wit' da big boys is probably natural, but I also believe that it's necessary to train with people of all sizes to perfect technique. Until about six months ago, the largest student in my dojo was about 5'10" and 180, the rest trailed down the scale to about 5'2" and 105. I was ecstatic to get some now folks in, three of 'em all over 6'2 and ranging from 220 to about 235 or so (I'm 6'1 and 200). Prior to getting these guys in, I had to go back to my monjin's dojo in Missouri to train with big folks. However, I've found that working with smaller people regularly has increased my sensitivity to uke and has allowed me to work on pure technique moreso than with larger folks. It's too damned easy to snap the shoulder or elbow of a 100-pounder. The waza has to be precise and very controlled. Alternatively, having a wide range of sizes is good for the dojo in general. The little folks get to test techniques on the hulks and the hulks get the advantage of training with some very fast and flexible partners. The danger of training with large folks consistently, I think, is that you'll start muscling techniques that require finesse. Train with as many different soma-types as you can. The range of experience will help your training immeasureably. From: "Michael Miller under new e-mail address ISHMISH @ aol.com" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dean: I also feel somewhat like you do regarding training with larger partners. Perhaps most advanced students feel that, like yourself, you get more valuable practice and insight into whether or not techniques are indeed being "muscled." I have tried to make it a point to train with those much larger than myself, and knowing my obsession with realism in training, you can see why. From: Todd Louis Green ----------------------------------------------- Dean, I'm about the same dimensions as you, it seems [tho my "pinch an inch" is a bit more than a inch, I'm sad to admit], but my dojo has a VERY wide variety of student body-types. I find working with this wide variety teaches me a lot about aikido technique. There are basic differences in ikkyo when used against a 4'6" person and when used against a 6'4" person, for example. If you feel that you don't get to test yourself unless you're going up against other "big guys" than I think you're focusing on the wrong thing in your practice -- it has nothing to do with your size or uke's size. If you can do the technique WELL against one person, you should be able to do it WELL against another. Sure, the variety helps you pick up some nuances earlier [I guess -- I have no basis to compare, really], but you shouldn't need to test your "strength" against uke, since it's not about strength. When I started aikido a couple months ago, I could do most techniques OK, although without technical grace. Now, two months later, I can't do a damn thing. Why? Unlike two months ago, I'm not using muscle in place of talent. Therefore, I've got nothing. 8-) From: The Mad Biologist -------------------------------------------- Dean asked about Big guys(TM) wanting to train with other big guys I guess at 6'2" and 200+lb I get to qualify under the given rules :) Maybe I'm perverse (OK I know I am), but I frequently try and practice with the smallest person I can find....when I do that I find I have to maintain a really good control of my centre and balance if I want to do a technique properly (shihonage is my favorite for that). Not that I don't appreciate all my partners, each of them has something different to teach me. I guess I don't spend too much time worrying about muscling technique... but then I always think of my upper body strength as minimal and try not to use it too much. From: "Dean C. Harris" ------------------------------------------ Todd, > I find working with this wide variety teaches me a lot about aikido >technique. There are basic differences in ikkyo when used against a >4'6" person and when used against a 6'4" person, for example. There is?!? No way! ;-) > If you feel that you don't get to test yourself unless you're going >up against other "big guys" than I think you're focusing on the wrong >thing in your practice -- it has nothing to do with your size or uke's Well in theory that's great. It all depends on your technical ability. See Hal's post. There's a reason when I see some _really_ big guys around Hal's size be tickled pink when they find another of their kind. No offence here, Hal. The biggest, most powerful guy in our Dojo is tremendously powerful. I had him in an Ikkyo pin. He's not fat...just big...so his shoulder really wasn't touching the ground and I asked him if he could move and I put all 190lbs I had into that pin. We struggled a bit but he was able to get out of it by sheer muscle. As we were stuggling...a dispondant me looks up to my passing sensei and wimpers, "Sensei, I wanna pin this guy. You know _keep_ him down." To which sensei replied, "You want to keep _him_ down? Get a big shovel." >size. If you can do the technique WELL against one person, you should >be able to do it WELL against another. Well, after almost 2 years I don't really find that to be the case. It's almost like the "Grabber and root" thread. If someone is really strong the grab and root is just pretty natuaral. However, I don't mean purposely resisting in the way they know you wannna go. Just plain holding really stong. Put simply technique must be perfect and flowing throughout the entire technique to get those guys to move. For example, we have another guy, must be Nidan or above come in once in a while and he's actually a bit bigger then the guy I mentioned above. I've seen some 3rd and 2nd Kyu's practice with him. Hehehe. All those who have SLAMMED me into the mat- I get my revenge by watching the guy just stop as they were doing their "best" technique and point out everything they were doing wrong. If they have an opening he'll reveal it. Ahhh...what goes around comes around. Nice to know. > When I started aikido a couple months ago, I could do most >techniques OK, although without technical grace. Now, two months >later, I can't do a damn thing. Why? Unlike two months ago, I'm not >using muscle in place of talent. Therefore, I've got nothing. 8-) Let me know what you think in a couple of years. You'll want to further refine your technique...naturally. Trust me...I really small Shodan may fully explain and point out _when_ you used muscle though the technique rather then hips/center but nothing is more blazingly clear when you can't even start the initial move or have tremendous trouble and clearly resort to muscle. Here are some techniques I find I need to concentrate far more when working with a big/strong guy: Iriminage (you try the straight entering version with someone Hal's size. Either you'll closeline him or you'll feel a tremendous amount of weight pushing you back and suddenly you feel like your playing tackle football again.) Morotetori Kokyuho (actually any of the kokyu techniques) Rvotetori Techinage (any "heaven and earth" technique) Just of the top of my head things I find _not_ being a problem regardless of size: Tsuki kotegaeshi Ikkyo...providing you enter at proper time. Tsuki Nikkyo Basically, anything from static position tends to be more difficult then in motion. This is amplified by stronger uke's. From: "Dean C. Harris" --------------------------------------- At 01:05 AM 10/21/95 -0400, you wrote: Mike, >I also feel somewhat like you do regarding training with larger partners. > Perhaps most advanced students feel that, like yourself, you get more Well, I'm far FAR from advanced...that's why I have problems with strength...technique isn't polished enough. >valuable practice and insight into whether or not techniques are indeed being >"muscled." I have tried to make it a point to train with those much larger >than myself, and knowing my obsession with realism in training, you can see >why. Well, really as for the "realism" I'm not much concerned about those who are much smaller then myself. They just don't pose any psychological threat to me because I know I _can_ resort to strength if necessary. But yeah...I know what you're saying...cause I stated it first. I'd prefer to find out trying iriminage as I can do very well with smaller guys all day long doesn't quite work as well on some 6'4" burp head steroid boy. From: "Dean C. Harris" --------------------------------------- At 08:02 AM 10/21/95 -0400, you wrote: Hal, >OK, let's not turn this into a Big Guys Anonymous session. But, Dean, you're >right. I'm 6'2" and 270#. Right now I'm the biggest guy that comes to class 270?!?! Is this from pumping lead or Hagan Daaz? >I get a lot of compliments from folks saying it's good to work with me, at >least as a change of pace. Part of it is that the bigger bod moves more >slowly, so it's a little easier to see things work. Another part is that if >you're not pushing from your center you're unlikely to move me. Exactly. >that Tori make the technique work on me. That means that sometimes on Tori's >turn-and-push part of a technique, the system won't quite "cam over." If Tori >tries to muscle through at this point, it becomes quite apparent when I >outweigh them by more than 100 pounds. How do the little guys handle Iriminage on you? Any tips besides practice? Didn't think so. >What I miss is the self-correction of discovering yourself muscling a >technique. When my uke weighs half what I do, it's difficult for me to catch >myself muscling unless uke actively resists. Of course, uke won't actively Yeah...though not nearly your weight while working with really thin guys or that one women it would feel pretty effective and not difficult, but sensei would come over and tell me I probably feel like I'm just getting a nifty work out. But actually I don't feel much of anything from someone who is 120lbs. Hard to catch myself sometimes...I'd imagine it's even more so for you. Though I _guess_ once you get enough experience you can have enough insight to recognize when your accidentally using muscle. >resist unless he has detected me muscling them and he wants to show me. Which >means that my muscling only gets corrected when my uke notices it, as I never >do. Unless I work with a big guy. Yeah...and I guess for you a big guy is very hard to come by! >ability to kick someone's butt). Here, I'm cherished because a bowling ball >is interesting when compared to a soft ball, a golf ball, etc. GREAT analogy! Guess I'd be a softball. Hmm...marbles, golf balls, baseball, softball, bowling ball, wrecking ball. Hal, looks like you'll need to "order out". Actually a construction site would be a great place to recruit a few wrecking balls. ;-) From: "Dean C. Harris" ---------------------------------------- Patric, >Maybe I'm perverse (OK I know I am), but I frequently try and practice >with the smallest person I can find....when I do that I find I have to Well, that's great for the small guy. >maintain a really good control of my centre and balance if I want to do a >technique properly (shihonage is my favorite for that). Not that I don't >appreciate all my partners, each of them has something different to teach >me. Oh, most definitly. > I guess I don't spend too much time worrying about muscling >technique... but then I always think of my upper body strength as minimal >and try not to use it too much. I'm not really talking about upper body strength so much as all around and most importantly in the forearms and hands/grip. I guess I should have also mentioned I was thinking of mostly static position training. I find the best way to handle shomenuchi ikkyo from a 6'2" 200 guy is to motion as if I'm going for the elbow but instead just get the hell out of the way never touching them. If they were comitted and *expected* to either hit something or to have nage get into their elbow they are in for quite the surprise and usually fall fairly violently...bigger they are...well, you know. I honestly think perhaps the _best_ technique if ever attacked by someone large/strong would simply be...not to be there at all and let all their mass and strength give way to gravity. Now, they may not be all that thrilled when they get up. ;-) But the more experienced have gotten up and smiled at me as if I had finally snatched the pebble from their hand. Dean "When in doubt get the hell outta the way 'n let them fall on their ass" Harris From: Kevin Jones ---------------------------------- >>>>> "Dean" == Dean C Harris writes: I think it's OK to practice with big people, but then I think it's OK to practice with small people too. I do think you run the danger of making a mistake if you think that it is only physical strength that can make it "difficult" to perform a technique correctly. I suppose it depends on exactly how you practice but the most difficulty I've ever had performing technique has generally been with 70 and 80 year old gentlemen who have been practicing longer than I've been alive and who weigh 100 lbs only if their dogi is soaking wet! Not only could I not power through their hold, but I couldn't even start to move. They know how to hold the mind, and that's much more difficult to deal with than just holding the body, as far as I can see. Someone who really understands focus and extension can take away all the "space"/"impetus" to move from your technique and since you don't feel much, it's much less clear what to do about it. I assume you know the old story of the tai-chi master and the sparrow that couldn't fly from his had since he always released the base it was trying to launch from just as it needed the support? As I understand it, Tohei-sensei used to delight in finding 7 footers for uke when in Hawaii, since as he said, their minds move just as easily as anyone else's but it looks much more impressive to the audience :-). If your Aikido is at the level where you are looking for leading and blending and not just muscling through, then it doesn't really make much difference how physically large the uke is, no? What matters is how good their focus is, since if you are clashing with their strength, in my opinion, there's something wrong anyway. We've had a fair share of big guys in our dojo - a 250, 6' 4" ex-arm wrestling champion, a 6' 3" 400 lb ex-football playing oil worker, a 475 lb ex-"mountain man", immediately come to mind :-) - and all are just as easy to move as anyone else *if you are applying the principles properly*. Of course, if you try to fight with these people then your technique fails but then the same is true if you try to fight with a 5' 2" 105 lb lady with very strong focus :-). So I understand your point but do think it has the danger of leading you astray if you are not careful. Just dealing with one type of "difficulty" is not going to improve your Aikido optimally. I know very good Judo-ka who spend more time in the gym than in the dojo since they feel they need to be strong - and none of them are close to the level of the "old masters" who never lifted a weight in their lives, or are likely to get to that level, IMHO. As always, your mileage may vary ... From: "Dean C. Harris" -------------------------------------- At 10:19 PM 10/20/95 EST, you wrote: Chuck, >Until about six months ago, the largest student in my dojo was about >5'10" and 180, the rest trailed down the scale to about 5'2" and 105. Wonder why Aikido doesn't attract more big guys. Guess it's the whole "soft" thing plus maybe the big guys feel really awkward and upon watching all those slim guys do rolls/breakfalls think they'll have a hell of a time accomplishing that. Especially if they watch suwari wazi. I'm pretty sure O'Sensei incorporated this to punish all those big bullies. >I was >ecstatic to get some now folks in, three of 'em all over 6'2 and ranging >from 220 to about 235 or so (I'm 6'1 and 200). Excellent for everyone in the dojo! Looks like you'll have some favorite ukemi puppies soon. >smaller people regularly has increased my sensitivity to uke and has allowed >me to work on pure technique moreso than with larger folks. Can you elaborate on that. Why is it you can work on pure technique moreso with smaller people than with larger? > It's too damned easy to snap the shoulder or elbow of a 100-pounder. The >waza has to be precise and very controlled. Yeah...I felt bad when I kinda hurt a newbie doing shihonage. I've been hurt before. But as soon as he said ouch and winced I realized we had to work on me being more sensitive and have better control and him practicing holding his arm as close to his head/body as possible. After I explained that he smiled and said, "Okay...you can pick up the pace now." He started to take really good ukemi! I thought he was about to take his 5th kyu test, but no...he was just about to take his 6th kyu test. He was just thrilled I explained then illustarted how not to get your arm ripped off and elbow/shoulder destroyed. I wish someone woulda showed me sooner! Now, as I watch him take his test and ukemi for Shihonage I can feel glad I contributed something of value he can use the rest of his life. Was something to see a smile and lightbulb over his head. But I digress... > The danger of training with large folks consistently, I think, is that >you'll start muscling techniques that require finesse. Ah...I see. Is that what you meant by being able to work on pure technique moreso with smaller people? Sure...it flows more easily whereas I personally seem to "stutter" with bigger guys. At least at this point. > Train with as many different soma-types as you can. The range of >experience will help your training immeasureably. Sure, it does get tedious training with big guys too much. It's a nice change of pace to switch from marbles to bowling balls and vice versa. From: Alan Shumak <04004-6@MSN.COM> ----------------------------------- I must give you guys credit. At 6'0'' and 185lbs (down from 205) I seem to be biggger and stronger than most if not all at my Dojo. Sensei is always on me about not using strength in techniques. It seems that the smaller the practitioner of Aikido the easier it is to learn and put into effect. From: Larry ------------------------------- >In the last four months I have been variously scolded by my senseis for using physical strength, or being too limp. Ah - you must have forgotten to send Ki. We say - not relax, but - Release - and send Ki through and out. That way, it is not limp, = and you don't have to relax, you just let go. Actually, we say - ACE up - or be aware of being centeredly extended, and maintain the= integrity of that state throughout. :) From: "Dean C. Harris" --------------------------------------- At 11:06 PM 10/22/95 UT, you wrote: >Alan >(new to the list) WELCOME! >I must give you guys credit. At 6'0'' and 185lbs (down from 205) I seem to be ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Which guys...all the big guys? Gee, you sure know how to enter a list...comin' in with compliments. >biggger and stronger than most if not all at my Dojo. Sensei is always on me >about not using strength in techniques. It seems that the smaller the >practitioner of Aikido the easier it is to learn and put into effect. I think most would state it runs both ways. A small guy working with a big guy can make them a bit intimidated and tense and try to use strength...which clearly won't work against a stronger person. It does seem the smaller and lighter they are at the beginner/intermediate level the easier and more fluid their rolls and suwari waza is. Hal...can you walk around the mat suwari waza style and keep up with the "golfballs"? Hope you get something from the list...besides a HUGE amount of e-mail, that is. How long have you been taking Aikido? And why the hell are you on MSN??? :-) Sorry, couldn't resist. From: Fred Rachford -------------------------------------------------- I'm 6'2", 210#, (not really a big guy but just right). :-] Unfortunately, we don't have as many big guys coming to my main dojo as we used to. When working with smaller partners I often see mudansha loose confidence in their technique, pull in their ki and consequently screw up (self fulfilling). They find me intimidating, evidently. (Some yudancha find me intimidating too for some reason.:-I) After a few sets they gradually relax and start doing ok. If I don't work with a bigger, stronger partner for a while I forget that this can happen to me too. You need to work with partners of all sizes and abilities, but if you don't get a chance to work with physically intimidating partners on a regular basis you can forget the need to not pay attention to his physical strength and assert a strong and confident lead from the moment he conceives of his attack, etc. So big strong guys are at a disadvantage two ways, using too much muscle in the beginning and not getting enough physically intimidating partners to burn in the in the habit of remaining relaxed under pressure and asserting a strong lead & ki extension. (And then there's this little sweet Japanese woman 1st Kyu who just loves to really smash great big round eye giants into the mat and never ever give them anything but a scary high breakfalls...) One other gripe: We may be bigger than you but that doesn't mean that you can just crank on locks without any regard for the damage they can do. One of the bigger guys I practice with hasn't been showing up for a while due to a persistent wrist injury. :-{ From: This space intentionally left blank ---------------------------------------------------------- >>OK, let's not turn this into a Big Guys Anonymous session. But, Dean, you're >>right. I'm 6'2" and 270#. Right now I'm the biggest guy that comes to class > >270?!?! Is this from pumping lead or Hagan Daaz? Don't know about Hal, but I'm 270lbs as well and 240lbs of it comes from being 6'6" (takes a lot of body to get up that high, and every cubic inch weighs something). The other 30 lbs is Haagen Daaz, and I'm trying desperately to return it as I've found I don't have any real use for it. ;^) I've been spending a half hour three times a week pretending to be a gerbil on the Nordic Track and, while it's done wonders for my wind and improved my strength a bit, I haven't lost any lbs. I know that something is changing though, since in the first week I *gained* two lbs, then over the next two lost them again, but my belt is two notches tighter, so I'm pretty sure the lack of weight loss is due to a compensating, but more compact, muscle gain. The point is that weight and appearance are not always linked in the way that most people expect. I've run into people who *looked* like they weighed about 160, but actually weighed over 200 due to a lot of muscle and very little fat. I also had a friend who figured that I weighed about 20 lbs more than he did (he was 180 and off the mark by 85 lbs at the time) and tried to body-check me at the ice rink...the far wall of the rink arrested his motion very suddenly when he got there. ;^) Don't assume anything about someone's weight in any situation where it might matter...unless they are very normal in size and percentage body fat, you could get hurt...or they could. If it's going to be important, ask, or try something less critical first to get a "feel" for it. >>I get a lot of compliments from folks saying it's good to work with me, at >>least as a change of pace. Part of it is that the bigger bod moves more >>slowly, so it's a little easier to see things work. Another part is that if >>you're not pushing from your center you're unlikely to move me. > >Exactly. One other thing about big folks: our levers are longer. This means that when we have the mechanical advantage we appear to be stronger than we are, but if you can arrange things so that the leverage is with you, you can handle someone stronger than you are. The levers are there, it just depends where you arrange the fulcrum. >>do. Unless I work with a big guy. > >Yeah...and I guess for you a big guy is very hard to come by! That would be a scarry thing all right! I'm not sure I'd want to play with someone who weighs the same percentage more than I do as I do, say over my wife (I weigh over twice what she does). It's also possible that the mat, floor and/or building foundation wouldn't stand up to repeatedly dropping a 560 lb uke... ;^) >>ability to kick someone's butt). Here, I'm cherished because a bowling ball >>is interesting when compared to a soft ball, a golf ball, etc. > >GREAT analogy! It holds up in another way too: big people land harder than light people and can't take drops as easily as smaller ones. We accelerate at the same rate (32 ft/s*s), but the higher mass makes for a larger energy to disipate on landing, but the materials we're made of aren't any stronger than the stuff little folks are made of. When you double the mass but don't use materials that are twice as strong, you tend to get more breakage. Big folks tend to have larger parts, which compensates some, but that old "bigger they are the harder they fall" stuff has a real basis. Also, depending on why we are falling, we tend to fall farther as well, thus building a higher velocity. Me and another 6'6" guy once lifted a 5'3" girl we knew so her head was at the same height as ours (she'd ben complaining about neck strain talking to us :^). Her first comment was "How do you guys ever get the courage to ice skate? That's a *long* way down!" We weren't at the rink at the time, and we pointed out that the skates added another 4" or so... ;^) >Hal, looks like you'll need to "order out". Actually a construction site >would be a great place to recruit a few wrecking balls. ;-) Maybe just put a little Uke in a lead suit? :^) From: Cady Goldfield --------------------------------------------------- Mike Bartman (I think) wrote: >It holds up in another way too: big people land harder than light people and >can't take drops as easily as smaller ones. We accelerate at the same rate (32 >ft/s*s), but the higher mass makes for a larger energy to disipate on landing, >but the materials we're made of aren't any stronger than the stuff little folks >are made of. When you double the mass but don't use materials that are twice as >strong, you tend to get more breakage. Big folks tend to have larger parts, >which compensates some, but that old "bigger they are the harder they fall" >stuff has a real basis. Hey! That reminds me of that old saying, "The bigger they are, the harder they fall." Nothing gets the idea across better than watching large guys slamming each other onto the mat! From: Chung Jayson C ----------------------------------------------- Hal Davis wrote: ----------> What I miss is the self-correction of discovering yourself muscling a technique. <---------- There's a dimension of this that poses the same problem for the big one working with a little uke and the little one working with the big uke. That is, knowing whether you've made a connection with uke's center. A great difference in size seems to make it difficult to feel if you've really hooked up with uke's center. For little nages, big uke's center may seem totally obscured by the pure mass of uke. For big nages, little uke's center may not seem to... even be there. It's great if difficult training for sensitivity, no matter which end you're on. You get more accurate feedback from a skilled uke, but it's valuable practice regardless. From: Hal Davis -------------------------------------- Dean Harris wrote: >Hal...can you walk around the mat suwari waza style and keep up with the >"golfballs"? No. What with aging knees, I do suwari waza slowly, painfully, and clumsily. Furthermore, my ukemi tends to remind people that the force of my impact with the ground is directly proportional to my mass and geometrically proportional to the height of my center from the mat. From: Lee Escobar ----------------------------------------------- >I'm finding I want to work much more with guys at least 200lbs or more or >those who are physically strong. ><...SNIP...> >Sure a higher rank who is much smaller and skinny can tell me I'm muscling >my way through and I can tell. BUT it still works. Whereas, working with >someone bigger/stronger will very clearly reveal my sloppiness and it'll hit >home when I simply can't do the technique and they throw an atemi to let me >know. So, that type of training _seems_ to me to be more succinct and >efficient. > >Is this a bad thing? Is it a phase others go through? Okay, I'll bite. I stand roughly 6' 3" and have dropped down to 290 lbs. (Yes, I was heavier). I work with both -- one of my partners is roughly my size, and somewhat stronger than I am, and my other parter is more like a twig, about 5' 10" and 140 lbs. Me and my large friend enjoy calling ourselves "Thunder Boys" because we can really make the mat rumble if we choose to fall in a "slamming" fashion (although this is becoming more rare). On training -- I can pick up my light friend and throw him easily. I don't need aikido for that. In fact, I can pick up the heaviest person and throw them to the ground. But that is more the play of children. I go to class to study the movements in aikido exactly as my sensei has shown them. I want to find out why it is so effortless for him, and why I have to work so hard. It's all point of view. I will admit there are times when I would enjoy lighter or heavier ukes, but the advantage is learning to apply more control. I know that I must deal with each attack appropriately. Try a randori with ukes who are opposites and you can find one person rolling gracefully, and the other's feet limply dangling from a hole in the wall :-) I find the practice with ukes of different sizes a better and more complete study of aikido, as it should be, I guess. Make the necesary adjustments and continue the techniques. P.S. Throwing around the little guys just makes their ukemi a lot better than yours. Pretty soon, you just can't keep them off of you. From: Kris A Kissel -------------------------------------- The best thing that you can do is to bend your knees. If you are six inches too high, then bending your knees will easily bring you down six inches. And when you are attacking shomen uchi to someone much smaller, in addition to bending your knees, you can make sure that you keep your elbow somewhat bent, so that your nage has an item which she can use for leverage (that is, your bent elbow). I think that height in this art is a double edged sword. Taller people seem to have alot more ease applying Ikkyo to me, but it really hurts them when I do my Shiho Nage. I'm not sure why, but I am certain that there is no optimal height. You just have to make the techniques your own, so that they feel natural no matter how tall you are. Have fun, and don't forget to bend them knees. From: Charles Yeomans -------------------------------------------------- >I'm 6'2", not a giant, but significant in aikido. I've only been training >for a year and I feel uncomfortable with my height. My posture suffers >during technique because I stoop to adjust rather than sinking, weight >underside. As uke, my atemi causes me to do the same thing. I cannot >deliver a serious shomen uchi to nage when she's 5'4". I only connect with >her head once my hand has traveled to around my chest height, changing the >whole dynamics of the interaction. Does anyone have any advice as to how I >can develop good posture and low center during technique? > > I don't see what your problem is. My sensei has pointed out that if you raise your hand high to deliver shomen uchi, then you're open to being punched in the ribs. So if you only need to raise your arm to chest height, you're in good shape with respect to exposing your side to nage. From: Douglas Peelle ------------------------------------------------------ Bend your knees, and keep practicing. From: Dave Balistreri ------------------------------------------------ yES INDEED BEND YOUR KNEES BUT KEEP YOUR BACK LEG STRAIGHT. (sorry) This demands flexibility but will strengthen your legs like never before. I always try to practice as deep a movement as possible. As low as possible this way, I concentrate on a direction I'm not comfortable to be in. Partners in the dojo or in the street come in all sizes, so this will be good training for discipline at a level that is little understood by tall people.. *"how to be small". Doing very deep pivots and shuffles as practice helps me train with people who share as much difference in height that you do. Very difficult. Good luck. rom: This space intentionally left blank ----------------------------------------------------------- >The best thing that you can do is to bend your knees. If you are six >inches too high, then bending your knees will easily bring you down six >inches. What do you do if you can't bend your knees? My knees don't work all that well. They hurt, they swell, and even on good days, grate and grind if I bend them with weight on them. There's also the occasional sharp pain (enough to cause a stumble) if I come down on them wrong. It's mostly the left knee, but both have problems. An osteopath specializing in sports once said, "Yeah, you're gonna have trouble with them..." after feeling the kneecaps while I bent them with no weight on them. I can walk fine. I can bend them with no weight on them. I can bend them with weight on them if I do it carefully and avoid certain positions. The sort of "dip" that you refer to, to lower my center while staying more or less vertical, is right out! Alternatives? I'm 6'6" (198 cm), so I doubt I can guarantee always working with someone my height or taller... ;^) >Have fun, and don't forget to bend them knees. The two are mutually exclusive for me, unfortunately. From: Scott Berg ------------------------------- The joy is to blend, if you cannot bend low enough then drop to your knees. It is never easy to blend From: Damien Morton ---------------------------------------- >>The best thing that you can do is to bend your knees. If you are six >>inches too high, then bending your knees will easily bring you down six >>inches. > >What do you do if you can't bend your knees? Everyone can bend their knees, but some of us have to do it differently. be carefull not turn your knees inwards (if you have inflexible ankes). Also, consider allowing one foot to rise up onto the ball. Many will say that this is less stable, but if you look at many boxers, and kenjutsu and karate stances, is is possible, and may well be more stable than a stiff legged hanmi. Seek out a tall instructor or black belt and watch them closely. Hamni is not designed for a deep stance so dont even try it. Being tall has its advantages (e.g long reach and stride). Now Aikdio mostly relys on getting close and around and behind. You will find that a long reach allows you to stop-hit and a long stride allows you to step in deep. Find the techniques that these are helpfull in. My favourites are shiho nage and irimi nage. In Shiho nage i can reach out and completely disturb the attack with a finger strike (for example) whilst stepping in deep for the throw. In irimi-nage i can start controlling the attackers arm way out there before i step round for the throw. Consider that reach lends itself to atemi rather than grappling, though not exclusively so; you will no doubt have a powerfull shomen needing neitehr to raise your arm very far nor over-extent yourself to reach the target. Also your reach will come in handy in corner-drop type throws. From: Chuck Melikian ------------------------------------------------ > >>>>> > I've been spending a half hour three times a week pretending to be a > gerbil on the Nordic Track and, while it's done wonders for my wind and > improved my strength a bit, I haven't lost any lbs. I know that > something is changing though, since in the first week I *gained* two > lbs, then over the next two lost them again, but my belt is two notches > tighter, so I'm pretty sure the lack of weight loss is due to a > compensating, but more compact, muscle gain. > <<<<<< In his book, Fit or Fat, Covert Bailey makes the point that worrying about your *weight* is pointless. What is important, is the ratio of fat to lean body mass. For healthy males, I think Bailey suggests around 10-15%. For females, he suggests 15-20% (this is from memory, I don't have the book here). If you are exercising an hour and a half a week, at 60-80% of your maximum heart rate, you are losing weight. > My prognosis would be that your exercise isn't long/frequent enough to burn > the calories that you intake PLUS burn the fat reserve. Depending on the > amount of extra calories that you take in (additional to what your body > needs to function at the level of your activity and metabolism) and your > genetics, your body will get rid of (i.e., excrete) excess calories. I am not an exercise physiologist, but my understanding is that the body does not excrete extra calories. The extra calories are placed into reserve as fat. > That > is, if your extra calories are a reasonable amount, your body will build up > fat with it to a certain level, and then after that just get rid of the > calories. The reason weight stabilizes is that the intake of calories matches the amount of energy required to maintain the body. If you continue to eat more than you require, you will gain weight (fat). The body continues to place extra calories into fat as long as there are extra calories available. Bailey points out in his book that extra calories can come from anything. That is, if you eat too many carrots, aside from turning orange, you will get fat. > This may be why, before your Nordic Tracking, you weren't getting > fatter and fatter til you burst. Now, with your bit of excercise (and I > assume you haven't changed your eating habbits), it has built up a little > bit of muscle (2lbs you say?), but *underneath* your layer of fat. Muscle weighs more than fat. He has gained more muscle than he has lost fat. Therefore, he weighs more than he did before he started exercising. He may have lost eight pounds of fat but gained 10 pounds of muscle, for a net gain of two pounds. Bailey makes a strong point of this in his book. Many times people are discouraged when they start an exercise program because they gain weight at first. This is because they are gaining muscle faster than they are losing fat. But, after a short period, this will change and they will start losing weight. This is also why Bailey suggests that worrying about your weight is pointless. Are you really worried about have too much muscle or too much fat? Fat is the problem, not muscle. > To start > burning fat, you have to get rid of those extra calories, so your body can > resort to burning your fat reserve to sustain your new activity. For most > efficient fat buring activity, do something that uses major muscles of your > body at a sustained aerobic level (60-80% of maximum). Anaerobic activities > don't burn fat much -- it'll burn sugar, carbo, and protein first. This really doesn't work quite this way. To start using the energy stored as fat, your body must use up the readily available sugar (that is what the muscles actually burn). Once this is done, the body starts converting fat to something the muscles can use, and using up the fat. The only way to lose fat is too eat fewer calories than you use. If you up your exercise level and match it with an increase in the food you eat, you may never lose weight. The big advantage exercise provides, in terms of using up fat, is that it increases the resting metabolic rate. So that even when you sleep, you use more calories just to maintain your metabolism. With time and careful attention to diet, things will balance out. Again, the most important thing to strive for is a proper balance of fat to muscle, not a low weight. For a far better explanation of this than I can give (after all, Bailey is the one with the MS in Biochemistry), read "Fit or Fat", by Covert Bailey. Chuck Melikian