Ikkyo Ura ========== > Can anyone give me advice on Ikkyo ura? Theoretically I know what I > ought to be doing but its currently gone to pot. I know I'm meant to > keep the arm extended out from me and push uke around rather than > drag him/her/it but it doesnt seem to work. I keep wrapping the arm around > me. Which way do I take the elbow initially? Where should I be when I > turn? Any suggestions on what the most important thing to remember is? From: Nigel Runnels-Moss ------------------------------------------- Keep it simple: Uke attacks right handed :- 1. Step off line, the tip of you left foot touching their right. Your right foot behind you in right hanmi. 2. Do that ikkyo thing with their arm. 3. When they are leaning back off balence with their elbow up in the air do the following all at the same time: i) Move their elbow around in a small clockwise circle ii) Put your right foot round behind you (around where their left foot is) iii) Twist your hips round to the right (you have to to move your right foot anyway!) iv) Sink down, pushing downwards on their arm. It's like descending down and to the right on a spiral. As you move down and round so does uke. If you just move around but not down then a good uke will just stumble around, and not go down to the mat. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ellis Amdur -------------------------------------- If you are "wrapping the arm around" yourself, I would guess that you are trying to simply turn out of the way instead of doing ura. Ura movements follow neutralized omote (irimi) movements. In other words, start your technique exactly the same as you would Ikkyo omote. If the person simply goes over, the problem is in their ukemi. One never needs to go tenkan if irimi is sufficient (another way to think of it is if you are at the dining table, and ask someone to pass the salt, and they do, the interaction is complete. If they ignore you or don't hear you, or pass it in the other direction, then you tap them on the shoulder, clear your throat, ask in a different way or throw bread at them - all this is ura). Anyway, if in doing Ikkyo omote, you encounter any resistence, or on a more sophisticated level, you do the technique in such a way to engender resistence, then you initiate an ura movement. It is essential to: a) Make your center the axis of the movement b) lead the movement with the hand that is on their wrist/hand, not the elbow c) let your eyes directly focus upon them in irimi, and at the moment of transition to ura, sweep your eyes in the direction you want them to go to the point where you want them to end up. to which --Jeff Frane (gummitch@teleport.com) added I find this an intriguing mixture of advice, but I confess to being puzzled by the notion that "one never needs to go tenkan if irimi is sufficient" -- as though tenkan/ura were just a backup for omote. Frankly, I don't think this is the case at all, but rather that ura is the other half of omote -- like the other half of the human body. And I would definitely take issue with the notion that the response begins the same for omote or ura -- at least wherever I've trained, the opposite is true: the initial movement is quite different from the beginning. If I *wait* for uke's response to determine which way I'm going, I'm clearly not in charge and I haven't initiated the movement. I'm letting uke determine everything. In specific response to Tricia's plight: if the arm is wrapping around you, the problem is *probably* that *your* arm is collapsing (the arm that is connected to uke's elbow), or is drifting to your rear. If you focus on keeping extension (there's a term that ought to cross various ryu boundaries) continuously, keeping that arm out in front of you, and *TURNING FROM THE HIPS* [emphasis added], I think ikkyo ura will begin to make more sense. It's also really important to remember that movement flows through more than one plane. Don't rely entirely on the horizontal circle, but remember that there's a distinct up-down plane as well. So as you are turning, you are dropping (from your center/tanden/one-point) so that your weight is transmitted down to uke's center. When teaching ikkyo, I think the most useful technique to work on is ai-hanmi katatetori. Nage doesn't have to worry about making the correct contact with uke (it's already there), and can focus on taisabaki. Incidentally, if you want a particularly good training in ikkyo, I'd suggest a visit to Seattle Aikikai where Sensei Bruce Bookman has apparently been making his circles smaller and smaller (oof!). Omote is particularly enlightening. "Julian M. Frost" added I agree with Jeff. Chiba Sensei has often talked about "treating the one as many, and the many as one". By this, he means that when performing one technique on one person, the feeling and application of the technique should be as if performing it on many people. So, using Ikkyo as an example, Ikkyo Omote is good against a single attacker, but Ikkyo Ura is (probably) better against multiple attackers -- the reason being that the ura version allows you to more easily deal with the first person, and turn to face other oncoming attackers. The meaning of the reverse of this saying, "treating the many as one", should be obvious(?!), so I won't go into it! Ellis Amdur responded Part of the problem is a confusion between terms. In aikido these days, we say omote and ura = irimi and tenkan. This is not so. To the best of my recollections of O-sensei's writings, he generally referred to two principles: Irimi and irimi-tenkan (not tenkan alone). The implication in the second term is that tenkan follows irimi, and does not exist without it. For these terms, the physical orientation is a manifestation of a larger principle of initiative. Omote and ura, on the other hand, simply refer to *front* and *back,* different physical orientations between the two people. Of course, the two techniques are structured differently, but both start with irimi. The tenkan movement follows irimi, and thereby, one usually has an ura technique. Aikido techniques always start with initiative - taking control of the center of the conflict. This is so with leads, when one gives *openings* to one's partner. This is so even in counters where I am at a disadvantage - falling, whatever, and in reversing my opponent, do so thru irimi by stepping/moving/shifting so that I am the center of the movement and thereby lead. Even sacrifice throws which ostensibly feature falling away from one's opponent only work thru irimi. Therefore, giving one's partner *openings* is also a form of irimi. I don't believe one can *choose* omote or ura, except in kata practice. I don't believe one can even *choose* what technique one is going to do, unless one is far superior in skill. You enter, and as the person *conforms* around the center (which is you) and depending one how they move, they and the proper technique drop into one's hands . . .if one has practiced one's basics enough so that the techniques are *innate.* Then again, is any of this helpful for beginners? I think so, given I spent a solid year spinning away from my partner on every tenkan movement when I first began. It was only when one instructor told me to enter that I got a sense of effective tenkan and thereby executed an ura ikkyo without either wrapping their arm around me or gracelessly tugging them around behind me. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rocky Izumi ---------------------------------------------- The basis of Ikkyo Ura is the Tenkan movement. You can actually break the Tenkan movement down into steps--4 steps if you do Tenkan Ura. 1. Enter so that your hands are now positioned in front of your body. This means that you are now facing 90 degrees to original direction. 2. Pibot 90 degrees to join with direction of uke. 3. Step back with outside foot. 4. For Tenkan Ura, pivot 180 degrees with feet in place. Using the above movement, you can do Ikkyo Ura technically. 1. Enter so that Uke's arm is horizontal in front and above you and you are facing 90 degrees to original position. 2. Pivot 90 degrees to join with direction of uke while you lower Uke's arm down to your hips in a straight vertical motion. 3. Step back with outside foot as you complete the lowering of the arm. 4. Pivot 180 degrees with feet in place as you complete the downward motion of the arm. This is only one way of doing Ikkyo Ura but it is a technically simple way that shows the relationship between Ikkyo Ura and the Tenkan movement. The problems come when the arm is started to be lowered too late (after step #3) or there is a push as one enters rather than a joining in the same direction in step #1.5 (somewhere between step 1 & 2) or the arm swing down to the hips is not completed by step #4.1 (the swinging of arms down should be completed before the last pibotting is completed. (Good paragraph there, and clear hints for Trish on what to look for. I forgot to mention that pushing Rock mentions; this is a really common mistake in ura -- nage's tendency to push uke off-line, deflecting him/her rather than blending. Another thing Trish might practice is having her uke *pull* a little -- this may make the ura movement a little more clear. --Jeff Frane gummitch@teleport.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Burr ---------------------------------------------- I have found that generally this problem occurs when uke's arm is brought down to hip level and nage then tries to pivot while in this configuration. I find that I if I start my pivot while the arms are still above the head and continue it all the way to the ground in a continuous flowing motion (much like a cork-screw). It is also important that you have shuffled in beside uke rather than starting the pivot while in front. You might also check that you are "pushing" forward with both arm equally and that your arms remain in front of your center. Quite often I see people pushing with the inside arm and pulling with the outside arm thereby wrapping uke's arm around nage's body. "Craig G. Hocker" added Actually, you will have much more control if you drop them first and then pivot. (Particularly if the uke is taller) The appearance of a corkscrew is I think visually misleading. The lead is always down mostly and continuous flowing motion is simply affect of never losing the lead all the way to the mat. More likely, her problem has to do with losing the lead through the fingertips as she starts to pivot. All this talk of pushing leads me to think there is not enough focus on thinking forward through the pivot so uke moves around her center rather than around some point between them. This seems to be a common problem. We are talking about ikkyo tenkan right ? :-) omote==irimi, ura==tenkan or have I got them mixed up in my head again. Rocky Izumi added I tend to agree with Craig Hocker about the importance of getting the hands to the hip sooner. If you want to work with physics on the "corkscrew" motion, it is a helical pattern. Such a pattern is the combination of a "circular" vector and a vertical vector. The hip motion gives the circular vector so the arms must give a vertical vector. If the arms are used in a diagnol vector, you no longer end up with a helix but a much more flat vector which is almost a circle. This is a lot like doing Ikkyo Omote by pushing forward instead of cutting downwards in a circle. By pushing forward, all you end up doing is pushing the uke away. You need the vertical vector of the arms moving in a cutting motion to drop the uke to the ground. This is a rather "physical" explanation of Ikkyo Omote and Ura, which I agree is greatly lacking but it is only meant to point out the necessity for a vertical vector movement of the arms in a cutting, rather than pushing, motion. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: christopher jones ----------------------------------------- Hard to say much without seeing/feeling what you're doing, but if you're turning and uke isn't, leading to the wrapping phenomenon, you need to take (better) control of his center using his arm. Keep a firm grip, extend, and keep it centered in front of you as you turn -- he should follow right along. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EdLocke@aol.com ---------------------- I also have had my share of confusion about the Ikkyo Ura movement, but have had some recent insights. For me, the best sequence seems to be as follows: I enter behind and take uke's hand towards their armpit and their elbow towards their ear, thus unbalancing them. The next motion is to bring their elbow down in front of them to a position just above and to the far side of their forward knee. At this point I am able to control them effectively in a *small* pivot around my leading foot, and direct them down to the mat. I recently attended a seminar/inter-club-workout with Okuyama Sensei and his students seemed to stress this type of movement. I think part of my problem in the past was that I was SO concerned with the pivot (drag around) movement that I ignored the mechanics completely. Okuyama's students seem to rely on much tighter and smaller arc's on the bring-around, and stress the downward movement of uke. This de-emphasis on the ura movement allows nage to concentr ate on the setup more, thus getting the arm of uke into a more controllable position before attempting the drop/pin. I have been working with this focus for all of 3 or 4 days now, so I think inconclusive is a good description of my study. The bright point is that I finally feel like uke would go around me even if they weren't being nice to me! Sometimes an uke that is uncooperative is a great learning experience, but that is another thread. -------------------------------------------------------------------- PART II ======= >re Ikkyo ura >I should have added that the problems I'm having with Ikkyo ura are >from static forms so it's partly the problem of getting some initial >movement from uke. Ikkyo ura from moving techniques isnt so bad because >it seems to be more a case of redirecting energy rather than getting >things going? > From: Dennis Burr --------------------------------------------- Having said the above, possibly the problem is that Uke is not giving you enough energy. Shomen Uchi (from the original query) cannot be done static... the cutting arm is dynamic. If Uke attacks with shomen uchi then stops before he/she cuts your head he has not attacked you but merely theatened you. Uke must cut through to your belly. No energy given = No aikido From: Troy Korjuslommi ------------------------------------------- One of the lessons in aikido studies for me was learning to feel when uke is pushing enough to be totally committed to a push. Eg. I let the uke grab my wrist; I push uke's arm towards him/her; I wait until I feel uke is "devoted" to the push; I do a tenkan movement, reversing the direction of my push to be the same with uke's push. If I'm relaxed, I am able to make the switch of direction in a snap like manner and take uke's balance/center. The rest is technique.