UKEMI FROM IRIMI NAGE ===================== From: Neil McKellar --------------------------------------------- > How about taking ukemi off irimi-nage? How do you handle that? [desc. of a very direct irimi nage in response to jodan tsuki removed] > Rolling is not an option - she's too fast and tight to let you roll and > there's simply no time for it. > > Tell me. (I'm assuming this was a general call for discussion. :-) What I would do is take it on the chin like the oaf I am. This would result in me arching neck, back, and legs until a sloppy breakfall is inevitable. I'm winded, but I get back up and attack again even harder (to show that I'm really stupid) and try to do it _better_ next time. :-) What I've seen done (and would like to emulate): - Uke pushes the hips forward, but arches the back. The head stays just in front of nage's arm (or on the shoulder) and the rest of the body continues the forward momentum. The feeling is one of slipping on ice and falling down. - As nage finishes downwards, uke's feet come almost straight up into the air. The backwards arch of the body has snapped forward like a whip resulting in a nice curved shape. One of uke's hands will have come down to control the fall and help dissipate the forward and downward motions of the body. - As nage clears the body and steps away, uke uses the continuing motion of the fall (as the feet come forward and down) to return to a standing position and attack again. (This is where I've seen the most variation. Everyone wants uke to stand up a different way. The fall is just a detail.) There ya go. Very verbose and inaccurate. The whole fall takes less than a second. Seagal's uke at the beginning of "Above the Law" (aka "Nico") demonstrates this nicely. I believe I've seen some of Saito Sensei's students take similar falls on video, too. From: "Ivan V. Vasilev" --------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:18:53 -0700 Jeff Frane wrote: >Ivan wrote: > >> How about taking ukemi off irimi-nage? How do you handle that? > >Arch your back, absorb the throw through your spine, lower body and knees. How do you absorb a throw through the spine? I think we're getting pretty esoteric here. >When your shoulders touch the mat, roll away from nage so you don't end up >at her feet where she can kick your head. That's a very good point. Getting away is really an issue. But I don't know that I can roll back. Your whole momentum is forward and you're flying ass up and forward. Sometimes, you end up down BEHIND nage, although very close. Now if you're gonna roll back, even if you can, it makes no sense to go back to him. From: Rickard Astrom ----------------------------------------- Good tidings to you all! The arch-fall that Ivan has been adviced to use for Iriminage is a difficult one. In our club we have a guy who can do this silently, and without pain or effort. I try to do this, and people say I do it nicely. the only difference is that I make a thumping sound upon landing and it bloody hurts to! Well with training I guess it will work. BTW, we call this fall, the falling leaf. A suiting name don't you think? From: Michael A G Cummins ------------------------------------------------------ Ivan, nice to see you back on the list, although it hasn't taken you long to start the IIIrd (IVth?) Ukemi War. >> Rolling is not an option - she's too fast and tight to let you roll and >> there's simply no time for it. If the Irimi is that strong and fast, I would sacrifice by throwing myself backwards (same direction as the 4th directional breakfall). In this situation, I would probably end up "straigh down, flapping with both hands" whilst earnestly wishing to be somewhere else <:-)>. This would end up rather like the breakfall in "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" from Ten Chi Nage, where you see Uke almost vertical, head down, moving towards the mat at speed. BTW do you think it is possible to Mae Ukemi (roll) from Ten Chi Nage ? My Sensei says that if Uke can forward roll, the technique is not being done correctly. From: Neil McKellar ------------------------------------------- Ivan replied: > With the fall you just described none of that happens. I mean, > that's what anybody would do, without training and with a bit of common > sense. You don't really do whole lot anyhow. As long nage comes strong and > you move the head back, the rest happens of its own. You just drop down like > a leaf, and there's not whole lot you can do about it. Very little force is > dissipated. You pretty much taking under the chin. > > Second objection, you hit the mat kinda square and flat. Again, > that's a hard way to take it. A bit harder surface would really hurt you. Aah. This is often my mistake, too. You shouldn't be square. Think about how you're standing when you complete the punch (just before the throw). You've got one foot forward and one arm forward. The body should very naturally turn slightly sideways as you fall. Especially if you're using lots of hip in the punch (there's differences of opinion about this and I've had complaints from people who think all karateka should punch like Shotokan people with the hips square...oh well). The person I'm trying hard to learn this from in our dojo is very skilled at ukemi. From what I've seen, he lets his front foot leave the ground first so that the rotation of the body seems very natural. I personally thought that leaving my back somewhat exposed might be a bad thing, but he has pointed out to me that if I turn the other way, I run the risk of smacking my face against nage's knee or getting hit in the throat. (For this reason, he doesn't like to try and roll out from irmi nage.) But I also think that his way more naturally uses the body's movement. This same movement even applies if nage chooses to perform tenkan first. In fact, he teaches an exercise for exactly this ukemi that sort of resembles breakdancing (for those of you who remember that :-). Put one hand on the mat and push yourself around it with your feet (it looks like you're running around in a circle with your body at ~45deg. or less to the mat). After you've done a complete rotation or two, kick up your _inside_ leg and slap with the other hand (pushing off of the hand in the center). This should throw both legs up, but the breakfall should be soft since you're already so close to the mat. Remember that you want to land on your _side_, not flat on your back. From: Ned Danieley -------------------------------------------- Ivan writes: > > How about taking ukemi off irimi-nage? How do you handle that? > we try to do what we call 'yoko ukemi': side fall. assume that nage is entering to your right: thrust your left leg out in front of you and rotate your body to the left as you fall. this allows you to end up in the breakfall position, slapping with the left arm. falling like this sort of combines the 'feet out in front' feeling of a strong iriminage with a reasonably comfortable fall. uke has to be alert in order to get that leg extended in time, but uke should be alert anyway, so ... for a good time, try yoko ukemi practice: starting from a squatting position, thrust one leg forward and fall to the side, being sure to get a good slap on the mat to absorb the energy. do both sides, and repeat about 30 times. then stand up, and do it all over again. From: Sparks ------------------------------ > No, that's the tricky part. You don't roll *back*, but rather off to the side > away from nage. Like I said, I understand the concept, but Bookman Sensei > is the only one I've seen do it convincingly. I spent an entire class with > him once, trying to get it. > > Your shoulders are on the mat, feet on the mat, hips *off* the mat, and before > your weight settles into the mat, you roll <------ that'away, by turning > your hips. > Hang on, hang on ... Lemme see here ... tori makes a strong irimi for irimi-nage, you essentially arch your back till your shoulders touch the mat, then roll off on the arm that is on the opposite side of your body to tori ???? ow ... you'd need strong arms ... From: Jeff Frane ---------------------------------------- >On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:18:53 -0700 Jeff Frane wrote: >>Ivan wrote: >> >>> How about taking ukemi off irimi-nage? How do you handle that? >> >>Arch your back, absorb the throw through your spine, lower body and knees. > > How do you absorb a throw through the spine? I think we're getting >pretty esoteric here. You absorb a throw by extending along the length of your spine. The feeling is like that you practice when sitting in seiza: lifting up through the top of your head, stretching the spine, while keeping your center down. At least, that's how *we* practice sitting in seiza. > >>When your shoulders touch the mat, roll away from nage so you don't end up >>at her feet where she can kick your head. > > That's a very good point. Getting away is really an issue. But I >don't know that I can roll back. Your whole momentum is forward and you're >flying ass up and forward. Sometimes, you end up down BEHIND nage, although >very close. Now if you're gonna roll back, even if you can, it makes no >sense to go back to him. > No, that's the tricky part. You don't roll *back*, but rather off to the side, away from nage. Like I said, I understand the concept, but Bookman Sensei is the only one I've seen do it convincingly. I spent an entire class with him once, trying to get it. Your shoulders are on the mat, feet on the mat, hips *off* the mat, and before your weight settles into the mat, you roll <------ that'away, by turning your hips. >>Is this on Bruce Bookman Sensei's ukemi video? If not, it should be, since >>he's the only person I've seen do this with absolute grace. > > I dunno. Haven't seen it. If it is, I'll have to buy it. Actually, I suspect it's going to be on Part II; I gather Part I is pretty basic. From: Chung Jayson C ---------------------------------------------- In connection with this arching fall... I was at a seminar last weekend with William Chen, a t'ai chi master, where he used this kind of movement in push-hands. He asked me to push him fast and hard. When I did, he arched his body back and under my push, causing me to lose my balance. He didn't go real low and to the ground, however, but, never having lost his balance, came back up. At the age of 60, he's still very flexible. By the way, my pushes did not start with hands on body but were like strikes from close range (push-hands distance). The ones he arched under were aimed at his shoulders or upper chest. A couple of times when he came back up, he knocked me off my pins with fa jing. I see the "Magic Ki" thread is back on the board, and I'll give a little description there. From: "Ivan V. Vasilev" -------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 27 Oct 1995 09:16:28 -0600 Neil McKellar wrote: >The person I'm trying hard to learn this from in our dojo is very >skilled at ukemi. From what I've seen, he lets his front foot leave >the ground first so that the rotation of the body seems very natural. >I personally thought that leaving my back somewhat exposed might be a >bad thing, but he has pointed out to me that if I turn the other way, >I run the risk of smacking my face against nage's knee or getting hit >in the throat. (For this reason, he doesn't like to try and roll out >from irmi nage.) But I also think that his way more naturally uses >the body's movement. I dunno about that. If you fall to the "wrong" side, away from uke, you turn your body (and head) away from him. I'm not sure that this is such a good idea. From: "Ivan V. Vasilev" ------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:51:03 PDT Joseph Toman wrote: >b) You ignore nage and hope she doesn't go for the throat next time. Hahaha... Actually you might be surprised to know that this approach works half of the time, in some places. Nage comes to throw and you just stand there, waiting to be thrown. So she stops right in her tracks, wondering why don't you move. "Is there something wrong?" - "Not a thing!" you say and pleasantly smile. hehe... ...Of course, next time she goes for the throat. They always do - as they should! From: Jeff Frane ------------------------------------- Mark "Sparks" Dennehy wrote: > >Hang on, hang on ... >Lemme see here ... >tori makes a strong irimi for irimi-nage, you essentially arch your back till >your shoulders touch the mat, then roll off on the arm that is on the opposite >side of your body to tori ???? >ow ... you'd need strong arms ... > It's really both arms, as I can reconstruct, and the roll is *kind of* a barrel roll. But, like I said, I never did get the hang of it. Part of it, though, was that it was really important not to settle your weight at all when you hit, but roll immediately to the outside. From: Julian Frost ------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Jeff Frane wrote: > It's really both arms, as I can reconstruct, and the roll is *kind of* a > barrel roll. > > But, like I said, I never did get the hang of it. Part of it, though, was > that it was really important not to settle your weight at all when you hit, > but roll immediately to the outside. The first Presidents Day Yudansha Seminar 9as it was then) that I ever went to, was when Bruce Bookman was teaching a class as part of his Godan test. He taught how to do the ukemi from iriminage, or rather, demonstrated it. That was one of the biggest breakthroughs I'd had in my entire time in Aikido. It seemed so, "right"! It's not easy -- that's why I always say that backward rolling ukemi *looks* easy, but is much harder than simply flying away -- but it's much "better" as far as being safe is concerned (IMO). From: Julian Frost ---------------------------------------------- If your body rotates away from nage, then uke is in effect adding more force to the atemi that nage may be performing. This was very evident when a Yondan did this "wrong foot" or "turning in the wrong direction" ukemi from a simple Kokyuho... he ended up breaking his jaw on nages fist! From: Neil McKellar ------------------------------------------- Julian wrote: > On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Ivan V. Vasilev wrote: > > I dunno about that. If you fall to the "wrong" side, away from uke, > > you turn your body (and head) away from him. I'm not sure that this is such > > a good idea. > > If your body rotates away from nage, then uke is in effect adding more > force to the atemi that nage may be performing. This was very evident > when a Yondan did this "wrong foot" or "turning in the wrong direction" > ukemi from a simple Kokyuho... he ended up breaking his jaw on nages fist! I obviously need to describe this better. I don't mean that uke falls _away_ from nage. Uke's head should be close to nage's shoulder (in fact, I try to press my head and hip against nage's shoulder and hip). I _don't_ turn my face and body towards nage. I'm still falling backwards (close to nage), but I keep my face and throat away from nage's other hand. If you don't stay square, which way is it safer to face? I don't dispute that falling _away_ is dangerous. Moving away is for _after_ the fall. :-) From: "Ivan V. Vasilev" --------------------------------------------------- >If your body rotates away from nage, then uke is in effect adding more >force to the atemi that nage may be performing. This was very evident >when a Yondan did this "wrong foot" or "turning in the wrong direction" >ukemi from a simple Kokyuho... he ended up breaking his jaw on nages fist! I know. That's what I'm saying! ("Away from uke" meant "away from nage"). Jeff seems to be saying that as you take the ukemi, you need to turn to roll to the outside. "Outside" implies away from nage and I'm not sure I like that. ...Unless he means, take the ukemi whichever way you can and once you hit the ground, THEN turn to roll to the outside. My problem with this approach is that if you've made your mind to roll to the outside and nage decides to keep your head and not let you go anywhere, you run the chance of breaking your own neck. In any case, I don't think it's a big deal where or how you roll AFTER taking the ukemi. More critical really is what you do WHILE taking it. Naturally, one may argue that "getting away" after you hit the ground is an essential part of it, but I personally don't find it that important. But, speaking of "getting away", I've noticed two basic approaches. And one of them is NOT to get away! The idea is, as you take the ukemi, you stay as close to nage as you can so that you can attack right away or use nage's momentum (providing he lost at least some balance while trowing you) and reverse the techniques. That works a lot for koshi-nage and irimi-nage. But even if kaeshi waza is discouraged, it is still considered a good practice to test nage's balance and to keep attacking continuously. So if you're trying to do that, you ought to stay to nage as close as possible and maintain the connection for as long as you can. Usually, you try to hang onto nage's gi, arm, waist, whatever and spring on your feet as soon as you hit the ground. It's a cat-like movement where you use the momentum of your falling body and keep moving until you get back on your feet. It's like a very compact roll, but you just go airborne. That's what I've been taught mostly and that's what I like to practice. On the other hand, you have those who want to get away. They don't try to maintain much connection and the feel is of "pushing away" as they take the ukemi. They end up a few feet further away and then they do a very interesting move that I've always found very amusing and kinda funny. Suppose uke lands on his right side (slapping with the right hand.) They end up pretty flat, with the right leg fully stretched. Then they push themselves up and sit upright. Then they turn to the LEFT, crossing the right leg over the left and rotate on the butt. As they do that, they get up while still turning and still moving away from nage. Never liked that one. It looks rather awkward, the body looks very stiff and it takes a long time to do it. If you're in a randori situation, obviously you want to be away from nage, but you DO want to get on your feet quickly. If I have to rotate on my butt, push with my hands, cross legs etc, just to get up, I'll have my head kicked 20 times before I do it right. Also it seems to take too much energy. Slap, push, turn around, push, get up. Doing this on a seminar would certainly kill me in no time. It also requires a lot of space. On seminars you hardly have space. (With the previous version, my butt never touches the ground, I don't have to push, I don't have to do hardly anything. It also happens about 100 times faster.) Many of the NY Aikikai people do it and it apparently comes from Waite Donovan (a long time uchideshi to Yamada Sensei) who likes to do that. Of what I understand, he has developed this style of ukemi and teaches a series of exercises to let you learn the "butt rotation" move. You can clearly see him do that on that 30 Anniversary NY Aikikai tape (Summer Camp 95), although he did it there quicker. Anyway, I'd be interested to know if some other people take this kind of ukemi and why. Obviously, it depends a lot on how nage throws you. If he projects out, you can't hang on anything. You just fly away. But once you hit the matt, you still have the option to approach it as a roll (more or less) or to do the "butt turning around" thingy. There is no way to go to kaeshi waza or to attack right away, but I still find it quicker and more efficient. From: Jeff Frane ------------------------------------------ Ivan wrote: > > Jeff seems to be saying that as you take the ukemi, you need to turn >to roll to the outside. "Outside" implies away from nage and I'm not sure I >like that. ...Unless he means, take the ukemi whichever way you can and once >you hit the ground, THEN turn to roll to the outside. My problem with this >approach is that if you've made your mind to roll to the outside and nage >decides to keep your head and not let you go anywhere, you run the chance of >breaking your own neck. Well, it's a combination of some of the above. You don't take the ukemi whichever way you can, but take ukemi as it is given to you, absorbing the power (as I said before), and THEN roll away from nage. It isn't a question of "Making up your mind" ahead of time, but following the direction of power and then *always* making a point of recovering ma-ai. It has everything to do with being conscious of where you are being thrown, and nothing to do with anticipating the throw. Which is, clearly, a bad idea whether nage decides to pin your neck or not. > > In any case, I don't think it's a big deal where or how you roll >AFTER taking the ukemi. More critical really is what you do WHILE taking it. >Naturally, one may argue that "getting away" after you hit the ground is an >essential part of it, but I personally don't find it that important. > In our training, it is a very big deal. It uke's responsibility to stay alive, after all, and lying at nage's feet (which is often standard aikido practice) or moving in an inappropriate direction (like, into nage's kick) is an important aspect of developing and maintaining a martial awareness. And, truthfully, it's not "after" taking ukemi -- it's part and parcel of taking ukemi. Ukemi doesn't stop just because you've been thrown or pinned. It's just as important for uke to focus on zanshin as it is for nage. > But, speaking of "getting away", I've noticed two basic approaches. >And one of them is NOT to get away! The idea is, as you take the ukemi, you >stay as close to nage as you can so that you can attack right away or use >nage's momentum (providing he lost at least some balance while trowing you) >and reverse the techniques. That works a lot for koshi-nage and irimi-nage. >But even if kaeshi waza is discouraged, it is still considered a good >practice to test nage's balance and to keep attacking continuously. So if >you're trying to do that, you ought to stay to nage as close as possible and >maintain the connection for as long as you can. Usually, you try to hang >onto nage's gi, arm, waist, whatever and spring on your feet as soon as you >hit the ground. It's a cat-like movement where you use the momentum of your >falling body and keep moving until you get back on your feet. It's like a >very compact roll, but you just go airborne. That's what I've been taught >mostly and that's what I like to practice. > I agree that maintaining the encounter with your partner is crucial to good aikido -- but assuming that the best place to be is always right next to nage is, I think, a serious error. Staying close to nage by grabbing a gi or whatever also means that you are well within range and, probably, in a disadvantageous position (like lying at nage's feet or lying face-down below a sitting and wide-awake nage), with all sorts of vital spots exposed and readily accessible. No comment on the butt-turning technique. When I'm thrown well away from nage, my response is to get to my feet as quickly as possible (using the momentum of the throw), keep my knees bent and get nage back into focus as quickly as possible, whether I'm going to jump right back on him or not. From: Julian Frost --------------------------------------------------- This is going to be incredibly difficult (for me) to explain, but I'll give it a whirl. Imagine looking down on uke and nage from the ceiling of the dojo. If uke rotates away from nage, then what you would see is two bodies rotating (for example) in a clockwise direction. Now Imagine that nage is striking uke -- if you like, picture two circles, side by side, nage on the left, uke on the right, and the nage "circle" has an arm sticking out. When the atemi makes contact with uke, it will be moving in a "downward" direction (we're looking from the ceiling remember!). The side of uke that gets hit, is moving in an "*upward*" direction... consequently because the parts of the two bodies (nage's fist; uke's face) are moving in opposite directions, the force applied is greater. Now imagine that nage is still rotating clockwise, but uke "rolls with the punches", counter-clockwise. When the atemi makes contact with uke's face, uke's body is turning *towards* nage, not away, as before. Consequently, uke's face is turning (hopefully) at the same speed, and in the same direction as nage's punch. Does that make any sense? If not, grab a couple of coins, put them on your desk. Rotate "nage" clockwize, then experiment turning the other coin ("uke") in different directions. Then, grab your favorite uke, stand next to each other, and try it for real! :-) From: "Ivan V. Vasilev" ------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 30 Oct 1995 12:03:41 -0800 Julian Frost wrote: >> Jeff seems to be saying that as you take the ukemi, you need to >>turn >> to roll to the outside. "Outside" implies away from nage and I'm not sure >>I >> like that. > >I doubt Jeff meant that... his teacher wouldn't let him get away with >that! Would that be Chiba Sensei? He'll rip his head off, wouldn't he? Hehehe... "Hey, if you're so dumb to do things like that, go home without a head! When you smarten up, come back and I'll give it to you." >Did I mention CHiba Sensei places a great deal of emphasis on ukemi! :-) What should he care... Now, if *YOU* have to be the uke, you better place a great deal of emphasis on ukemi! It also helps to have a good personal relationship with Jesus as well. :-) ...But it does seem to me that with Chiba Sensei good ukemi wouldn't help that much anyhow. The way I figure, you better stay relaxed and have strong limbs. The rest is in God's hands. (And in your instance, that would definitely be Chiba!) I don't care how good of an ukemi you take and what ukemi tricks you know, you won't have any time to do 'em, I'd guess. Not that I know it from personal experience, you should know better. I'm just trying to reason. ...I'm also curious, does he teach special ukemi classes / drills / exercises? BTW, the same is true with anybody else who's quick and ...well, decisive as nage. :-) I was just talking about Kurita Sensei with a friend of mine. He is fixing to go down to Mexico for his seminar this November and the talk turned to Kurita Sensei and taking ukemi for him. So the guy says: "What? Ukemi? ...Nah... This stuff doesn't matter with him. You hit the mat fast and hard, I don't care what you do. Sometimes it is less uncomfortable than others, but it's never comfortable!" :-)) Interesting thing on that flyer for his seminar - it said something about Aiki Kenpo and Aiki Weapons. I've never heard the term "kenpo" used in that way. I wonder if it meant empty-hand Aikido or what. From: Ned Danieley ------------------------------------------- Julian Frost writes: > > If your body rotates away from nage, then uke is in effect adding more > force to the atemi that nage may be performing. This was very evident > when a Yondan did this "wrong foot" or "turning in the wrong direction" > ukemi from a simple Kokyuho... he ended up breaking his jaw on nages fist! > hmmm. if uke is rotating *away* from nage, how can that *add* power to a strike? is this the dreaded circle punch (close relative to the deadly U punch)? or perhaps you mean that the impact on the mat would be greater? if so, I would argue that taking the ukemi at the proper time would result in less impact, or at least more easily managed impact. I'd much prefer falling on my side than flat on my back.