KOTE GEISHI UKEMI ================= From: Jun Akiyama --------------------------------- On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Willem Koster wrote: > I have a problem when performing ukemi from kote gaeshi. It has happened to > me several times now that when I fall I fall with my legs on top of my hand. If I'm picturing this correctly, your legs land on top of your slapping hand? Hm. If this is true, you must be pretty flexible! > Another thing that bugs me is my problems with breakfalls over the left > side. Over the right side they go ... reasonable, but left is really sh*t. I > tense up in fear of falling. This makes it very hard for uke to complete the > throw and as a result the fall is even worse than when I just relax. Then why not just relax? As it is with most of aikido, relaxing is one of the hardest parts. You might want to think about just what differences do you feel between your right and left? I go against tradition and practice my bokken and jo suburi with both hands, just so I can "remember" how it felt when I started. I feel this amplifies what I'm doing wrong and keeps me from just plainly developing a pattern which sort of "works" most of the time. Keeps me fresh. One thing to try is to enter the ukemi relaxed, and try to stay relaxed throughout; this might be easier than "suddenly" trying to relax in the middle of the throw. You might be able to grab someone after a class to help work on this... Also, one thing that I recommend when I (try to) teach breakfalls to my fellow students is to go "over" your arm rather than around it. So, if you're performing tsuki kotegaeshi with your right hand punching, go over your right arm rather than going around it; this should make your arm the axis of rotation (which is basically a horizontal axis) rather than your shoulder (which is more or less a vertical axis). I sometimes teach breakfalls by having a person sort of cradle a jo in their hand up their forearm, then trying to get the person to go over the jo. This helps _me_ to envision breakfalls, but your mileage may vary. From: Julian Frost ---------------------------------------------- On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Jun Akiyama wrote: > Hi Willem, > > On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Willem Koster wrote: > > I have a problem when performing ukemi from kote gaeshi. It has happened to > > me several times now that when I fall I fall with my legs on top of my hand. > > If I'm picturing this correctly, your legs land on top of your slapping > hand? Hm. If this is true, you must be pretty flexible! Why? I have also landed on my hand once or twice... it can hurt, especially when you jam you thumb in the process! You slap, then your body lands, and you legs fall where your hand is. A pretty dumb thing to do, but it happens! :-) From: Kjartan Clausen ------------------------------------------ Willem Koster wrote: } } I have a problem when performing ukemi from kote gaeshi. It has happened to } me several times now that when I fall I fall with my legs on top of my hand. } This causes a very sore muscle on the side of my leg (and a hurt thumb), } which is especially painful when I try to descend the stairs the next day. } Makes my leg unstable and this morning I nearly fell (yikes). } I think your problem might be the angle of your hand to your body. If the angle is too small (less that 30 degrees) you are going to lang on your hand. If the angle is too big (90 degrees or so) the fall is going to be a lot harder that what you are aiming for. The correct angle is ~45 degrees out from your body. In the beginning of my career as 'favorite ragdoll' for the instructors (all of them), I often did those two errors. } Another thing that bugs me is my problems with breakfalls over the left } side. Over the right side they go ... reasonable, but left is really sh*t. I } tense up in fear of falling. This makes it very hard for uke to complete the } throw and as a result the fall is even worse than when I just relax. The } other day when sensei threw me I just seemed to slow down while'st in the } air and had lots of time to prepare the landing. Very strange thing, but it } takes a very good uke to make this happen (I don't think sensei will be my } uke when I test). Ummm... I suppose you mean tore/nage and not uke, as tore is the one that throws. It's quite normal to have a shitty fall on one side. I've noticed that the side often changes when you are doing ushiro ukemi. There's this guy at our dojo who broke his collarbone some time ago, and that is his shitty side, as he don't dare to try to relax and fall as he does on the other side. } Personally I like testing. The whole thing from the preparation, the extra I do too - Other peoples tests that is. } lessons, the exhilerated feeling before the test, the focus during the test That _is_ a nice thing about tests. The whole dojo gets so much more concentrated in the time before and during tests, even if it is just one or two people who are to take them. } and even the beer afterwards. All I have to remember is to relax (sometimes That too is a very nice thing about tests. The party afterwards. A test is one of the few occations you have to see your aikido buddies outside of the dojo normally. } it helps to close my eyes when I am being uke in irimi nage) and keep on Uh-oh. Don't close your eyes when you're uke. That's the time you suddenly discover that atemi aimed for vital parts of your anatomy that you'd rather prefer stayed un-cruched. } smiling. Now _that's_ a thing you can do safely. Always look on the bright side of life. } } Kjartan wrote: } >What was the saying the Patrician in Ankh-Morpork had? } >"If you have them by the balls, their minds will follow" } } To get back to the Latin thread, it was written: } cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum } } which was translated as } When you have their full attention in your grip, } their hearts and minds will follow. } } } } hehehe don't you think Rincwind is a perfect practioner of the noble art of } Nikedo ? As he once said. The important thing isn't where you are going to run. The important thing is what your are going to run _from_. From: "Kahn, David" ------------------------------------------------ Willem wrote: >We have a test coming up (going for 4th kyu) and I have some problems. > >I have a problem when performing ukemi from kote gaeshi. It has happened to >me several times now that when I fall I fall with my legs on top of my hand. >This causes a very sore muscle on the side of my leg (and a hurt thumb), >which is especially painful when I try to descend the stairs the next day. >Makes my leg unstable and this morning I nearly fell (yikes). > >Has anybody ever experienced a similar faulty ukemi (not once, but as a >pattern) either as a student or as a teacher ? I know what I am doing wrong >(don't fall on your hand), but could somebody give me any tips that may >tackle this problem at a more fundamental stage ? Here's a suggestion as to what might be happening. Remember, I haven't actually seen your ukemi so I may be way off beam. Maybe you're practising slapping the mat while lying flat on your back or are more used to being thrown on your back than your side. Your arm is out at a 45 degree angle and your hand is more or less in the plane of your shoulders and hips. If we were magically to freeze all your joints in that position it would be impossible to roll you onto your side. Imagine that you're still frozen and we lift you to your feet. Now we unfreeze you just enough to rotate your slapping hand so that the palm is away from the body. We refreeze you and lift, rotate and lower you so as to place this palm flat on the mat. Is this similar to your position as you take kote gaeshi? If we unfreeze you now you will fall on your hand. As you say your thumb is getting bashed you may not even have rotated your hand. Are you striking the mat with the little finger edge of the hand? You can see that with your hand underneath your body it is impossible to slap the mat as your body lands. Your hand is in the wrong position so that you are slapping the mat first, than landing. Your hand needs to be further forward. Try this exercise: as you begin the breakfall place the back of your slapping hand on your opposite ear so that your forearm is across your face and hold it there as long as you can before slapping. It should be almost impossible to get that arm under your falling body and you should land automatically in more or less the correct position with your hand well away from your body. >Another thing that bugs me is my problems with breakfalls over the left >side. Over the right side they go ... reasonable, but left is really sh*t. I >tense up in fear of falling. This makes it very hard for uke to complete the >throw and as a result the fall is even worse than when I just relax. The >other day when sensei threw me I just seemed to slow down while'st in the >air and had lots of time to prepare the landing. Very strange thing, but it >takes a very good uke to make this happen (I don't think sensei will be my >uke when I test). This is very common. Most people initially feel happier on one side than the other. When sensei throws you you don't have time to think about it so you breakfall naturally and effortlessly. If you have time to think about it, it all falls apart. The solution is to practise, practise, practise until both sides feel equally natural. Whenever you practise throws with a partner _always_ do one side then the other. When you practise ukemi on your own do not use your good side _at_all_ until your awkward side feels just as good as the other. It can be done. From: Claudia Wollstein <100670.430@COMPUSERVE.COM> --------------------------------------------------- Dear Willem, The first time I read your mail, I thought "You must describe him the basic ukemi drill we use at the dojo!" Then I tried to describe it ... :-( Although it seems pretty impossible, I will try to broadcast a few hints. I see more than one problem in your ukemi: Your landing on your hand indicates that 1) (someone else pointed that out already) the angle between your arm and your body is too small, and 2) your body lands "piecewise" (not one big THUMP, but with several thumps. These might be the causes. Now for the attempt to cure them: 1) Our basic ukemi drill is this: You lie on your back. Now try to make your back round, with a bit of a hunchback, and swing to and fro, increasing the amplitude from one swing to the next. When you find your swinging strong enough, pick the moment when your feet are up and the top half of your body down, pick the side, and let your body fall to that side, and try to land like you would in an actual ukemi. Practice with the aim of causing only one impact, which means that your hand and your leg land on the mat simultaneously, making it impossible for your hand to be there first with the leg landing on top. (Sorry, this description is hard to get over the wire.) When you choose to land on the right side, for example, make sure that your right leg is a bit straighter than the left one. The right leg should be in contact with the mat from the hip to the foot. The left leg should NOT fall on top of the right one (or you will have the sore muscle on the right leg next time, because the knee is pretty hard), but it should almost "stand" on the mat. (This also avoids another mistake which is particularly painful for men.) Your body must build up some tension during the landing, which must be highest at the moment of the THUMP. If you land completely without tension, like a wet towel, there is the danger of a whiplash (painful for your [right] foot [in the case above]). 2) What I found pretty helpful to cure my anxiety when falling (and something that I find works marvellously with kote-gaeshi) is to completely focus on "radiating" ki through my hand. (Damn, this is hard to describe in my native language, it's even harder in English!) What I'm trying to say is: I try to move like someone who running very hard after something trying to grab it but always just failing to do so. That way, my hand always exerts a forward force nage can guide. He doesn't have to pull me into the technique. I will allow no other consideration than this to enter my mind, not even that of preparing to fall. This relies on a fairly good nage who holds my hand and keeps it high enough above the ground, so that I don't go straight into the mat. From: Lee Escobar ------------------------------------------------ >I have a problem when performing ukemi from kote gaeshi. It has happened to >me several times now that when I fall I fall with my legs on top of my hand. > I know what I am doing wrong (don't fall on your hand), but could somebody give me any tips that may >tackle this problem at a more fundamental stage ? > Hard to say "do *this*" without seeing you fall, but it sounds like your taking a really wild ride. Go back to the basics. Start rolling again. Find your good ukemi again. Breakfalls from kotegaeshi do not have to be high-altitude feats of body slamming. Tighten up into your center. Try to stay close to nage, protect yourself, and fall safely. >Another thing that bugs me is my problems with breakfalls over the left >side. Over the right side they go ... reasonable, but left is really sh*t. I >tense up in fear of falling. This makes it very hard for uke to complete the >throw and as a result the fall is even worse than when I just relax. This is not uncommon. Because of past injuries, habit, or whatever reason, people are "sided", and your body is more comfortable with one side. This is normal. Again, return to the basics, and work on the poor side to increase your confidence. We say your _body_ is afraid. Consciously, falling may be no big deal, but your bones and internal organs do not agree. Return to the basics -- kamae, ukemi, and show your body that your mind knows what it's talking about when it comes to scary falls. :-) From: " " ------------------------------------------------- Kjartan Clausen showed me the light by saying: >There's this guy at our dojo who broke his collarbone some time ago, and >that is his shitty side, as he don't dare to try to relax and fall as he >does on the other side. that's it! i occasionally wondered why my mae-ukemi on the left side seemed a bit smoother than on the right side. i just realized that it is probably becasue i had reconstructive shoulder surgery (motorcyles can do stuff like that to you, but that's why they are so damn fun, ha!). the surgery was 4 years ago, before i started aikido. i have basically full motion in the shoulder, though the colorbone is shorter by about 2cm. i must be worried about it somehwere in the "back" of my mind and so i'm not relaxing enough. i never really consciously think about the shoulder much when doing aikido. of course my sensei knows about the shoulder and i tap out early on certain pins to avoid another $10,000+ trip to the hospital. but on regular ukemi i hadn't been thinking about it, or so i thought. ha! so now the question is, will i be thinking about it more now and have even worse ukemi on the right side, or will i have purged it from my system and now be ambi-ukemi-dextrous... i guess i won't know till i'm back in the dojo (i've been on a three month break, but it's time to go back) as my apartment can't exactly accomodate a try. i could go to the park. wait, i just remembered. they don't have grass in parks in japan... From: Patricia Anne Matthews ------------------------------------------------------- Another question about kote geishi ukemi - I seem to have changed the way that I ukemi and I now keep kicking nage in the back of the head as I go over (the ukemi's happening in a vertical plane) - it's fine for me as uke nice floaty bit follwed by a reasonable soft landing and not much pain in the wrist but not so good for nage! I guess I need to readjust my ukemi again? From: Lee Escobar ------------------------------------------------ Do not let nage apply fluffy technique! If nage is wrong, by all means take ukemi, but make sure your fall is appropriate to the throw. It is important to finish your technique, because it's sometimes dificult to stop nage when you're in the air and your wrist is snapping. If nage is crossed, blocking himself, off-balance, or plain lost, why sacrifice yourself by slamming into the floor when a roll would work? You must be ready to fall and protect yourself, yes, but do not make weak or false attacks. A little pressure from uke and good ukemi can help nage to find the right place to be. From: Thomas Wollstein <100670.430@COMPUSERVE.COM> --------------------------------------------------- (...) I now keep kicking nage in the back of the head as I go over (...) With some sarcasm, I would say that as it's bad for your nages, they should keep their heads down. (But then you might not find people willing to practice with you any more. (...) the ukemi's happening in a vertical plane (...) That, again, is hard to imagine (assuming that your nages don't lean over to the side). I have encountered a similar problem with a kind of kokyu-nage, but there, uke actually spins in a tilted plane, and nage leans over under uke's center of gravity. (Most people learn very quickly to keep their heads down doing this.) Are your nages usually standing up or kneeling when they throw you? If both is practiced at your dojo: Does it happen only to those nages who remain standing?