***************************************************************** RANDORI ***************************************************************** Q From: CHARLY Q ----------------------------------- Q Our dojo is mostly newbies, myself included. We have been doing more Q randori of late. We move slowly, one uke making contact before a Q second is supposed to attack. I find myself doing poorly, executing Q the same technique for every attack, moving too fast and sloppy and Q having to suppress a strong desire to punch instead of using Aikido Q techniques. Q My sensei and sempai tell me its a matter of lots of practice, lots of Q randori and not getting flustered as nage( and I know that they were Q to tell me that before I asked them ), but I was wondering if any Q of my fellow Aikidojin have ideas/exercises/experiences that I should Q try? From: BEN FLAUMENHAFT ---------------------------------------------------- When I first started doing freestyle (the equivalent of randori, with one person), I had a lot of the same kind of problems. My advice is to try and relax; don't fixate or ATTEMPT to do techniques. This is what Aikido is, ideally. Once you get used to it, things become a lot easier. From: Laura Hague ---------------------------------------- Sounds like you've been doing jiu waza rather than randori. I find that, in jiu waza, simply going by the numbers helps: ikkyo, nikyo, etc., then on to the other things I've learned in the order I've learned them. And alternate irimi and tenkan (irimi ikkyo, tenkan nikyo, irimi sankyo, etc.). Like I said, this advice works for me in jiu waza. I'll let you know when I stop doing kokyonage repetively during randori. :~) From: Pete Ro -------------------------------- How about some breathing excercise? To develop your ki, slow you down during randori, and develop patience and calmness under "fire". Also, how about doing one-on-one practice, focusing on a single technique until it becomes second nature in reaction to certain attack and tori-uke position? From: "James M. & Tamaria L. & Jimmy Carlson by way of jamcar@infi.net James M. & Tamaria L. & Jimmy Carlson" ----------------------------------------------------- In my first experience in Karate randori I threw my partner in Kote gaeshi. Not a good impression. The human body is a slave. It just does what it has ALWAYS DONE. Randori takes a lot of practice. It is good that your sensei is starting you out now. I plan to start my students after four months of practice. From: Hal Davis ------------------------------------- Me (sankyu): Aside from a difference in terminology (what you call randori we call multiple attacks, what we call randori is one-on-one improvisation), I know exactly what you're talking about. And yes, your instructor is right. In our system, we don't expect one to do much besides get out of the way and be safe until about ikkyu, and we don't expect much variety of techniques until shodan. Part of the reason for that is that most of the techniques we are learning prior to ikkyu are practiced sen-no-sen (entering into the attack). Beginning at ikkyu we learn to do several new techniques and several of the earlier techniques go-no-sen, meaning that you execute them while fading away from the attack. Sen-no-sen helps you to learn the techniques to a little greater depth, but go-no-sen gives you a little more time to deal with the attack when you have to think about everything before you do it. Just relax and realize that you have an opportunity to be exposed to something that you're not expected to do well at for a good long while. From: Jeff Frane --------------------------------------- Your approach is really pretty good (although the punching stuff has gotta go). Doing it slowly is the best way to work, and sticking to only a couple of techniques is really a very good idea, especially is you avoid any kind of pins or any complicated techniques. Stick to kokyunage and iriminage (very simple, sort of clothes-line approach). Focus on making a connection between your center and your partners'. Randoris are difficult, for everyone. I've seen a few really good ones, but I've also heard that people like Shibata Sensei (7th dan) have never been pleased with their *own* randori. (And I watched Shibata Sensei demo one once -- I thought it was bloody amazing!) The only times I thought I did reasonably well my teacher told me my randori sucked. So... From: Larry Novick ---------------------------------- You could try to practice without the need to throw at all. The need to throw is one of the things that gets in many people's way, not just in Randori but in general practice. From pam@mail-nerc-nutis.ac.uk Thu May 4 11:28:42 1995 ------------------------------------------------------- I cant do this either, but what the hell, here's some advice anyhow! I wouldnt worry about 'doing poorly, executing the same technique for every attack' - when you've got the hang of one technique you can move on to others How new are your newbee ukes? If they're not to confident at ukemi's yet then part of you're problem may be the way that they attack. Do they tend to coe in, clamp on and come to a dead halt ? When you are learning things and having to take it slowly then the attack has to be in 'slow motion'. In randori this means uke attacking slowly and keeping the movement going. The nack is then to move in such a way as to keep them moving (for example dont try to reverse their motion but move off line and throw them in the direction they were heading - if you move off line and then turn on the spot then uke should end up running around you). Other bits of advice I've had are..... - Use simple Kokyu nage throws rather than trying for techniques like ikkyo etc. If you can keep uke moving then simple redirection can look quite impressive (and effective) - Pick the next person to throw by moving towards them and offering a limb rather than running away. This puts you back in charge and you know where and what kind of attack is coming. It also make you look more confident - Step through when you throw, keep your posture upright when you throw, keep both feet on the floor so your balanced when you throw (and ready for the next attack). - Try and use the minimum effort, feel for the 'easy way' to throw and go in that direction. - Let uke hold you - dont grab for them. And give them time to get hold, dont move too fast before they are attatched - If you find something that works for you keep with it until you feel confident about doing randori and then try and work new things in. - let uke ukemi at their own speed dont try and throw them hard. This gives you more time and keeps uke happy! - When you get more confident try the tenpin bowling style and aim uke at the other attackers, this again gives you more space [proviso, this depends on the ability of the ukes - If uke is just concentrating on remembering how to ukemi then you have to be aware of where you are throwing (edges on the mats, walls, people sitting out....)] - dont panic! From: Bryan Zarnett ----------------------------------------- I'm very new to Aikido - so not much randori here on the Aikido side, but through previous training, I must agree to put techniques to work properly does take time. I think Aikido is a bit harder to apply initially in randori, but effective non-the less. Your best bet is to take your time - do randori a pace where you can effect a technique. Aikido takes alot more coordination of body to get a technique right and if timing if off so is the technique. I found it helpfull to just try basic techniques (footwork only) such as Irimi, or cross-step body change, 180-degree pivot, cross step, 180-degree pivot, etc with someone coming at me at a moderate pace...this works on timing and you only work on coordination of the feet..the hands come eventually. Techniques after a while get ingrained in your brain - some more then others and these are the ones you do over and over again, regardless of the other techniques you known - you can sorta call it instinctive...theres nothing wrong with doing the same technique - unless its wrong. From: Arun Kumar Mathur --------------------------------------------------- I started Aikido in January, and I am still new to doing randoris as well. However, I make it a point to simply relax and let everything come naturally. I may not be on the mark each time, but I learn from my mistakes constructively. There are plenty of people in the same boat, and some friends of mine here are trying to get together during the week and do randoris non-stop which will benefit everyone. So maybe get a couple of people together, because there are plenty of people in the same boat. From acs@cs.toronto.edu (Alvin Chia-Hua Shih) --------------------------------------------- Q From: Dchan@csbpplant.physical-plant.dal.ca (Dchan) Q Subject: Re: Need help on Judo- Shiai/Randori Q [...] Q My problem with randori is: what should I do to set up a uki for a throw? Q Q I've basically asked this question here before, and I've experienced Q the frustration, so I'll pass on the information I've found useful. Q (Apologies that I can't ascribe credit where due. It's all just a Q fuzzy haze in my brain now.) "Maximum efficiency, minimum effort." It doesn't say, "no effort". You have to "invest" some effort to get the throw. Though it may seem hard to make uke move, it's worth remembering that staying balanced on two feet is an active process. It's automatic for all of your ukes, but it's nevertheless active. One thing to remember is that the active algorithm is not "rule based", but "heuristic". You have to develop a sensitivity to your own movements to be able to learn the weaknesses in the heuristic. Every situation may make different demands of you, but a starting point to remember is that one can better resist off-balancing forces that are parallel to the line joining your two feet. As an exercise completely separate from randori, just have someone stand in a firm stance and tell them to resist being moved off their feet. Push and pull them in various directions. You will find that it's easiest to make your uke step when force is along the line perpendicular to the line joining their two feet. Uke can resist in place by shifting his weight, even while his feet remain planted. You have to _feel_ this and determine the direction that uke can resist the least. This is best done when you are relaxed and loose with a loose grip. Try to grip without using the index finger and thumb. Gently rest the index finger on whatever you are gripping and imagine it as a "probe" or "sensor" which is trying to sense uke's movement. For a beginner, there are too many things to analyze in real-time in randori. Find others who are willing to spend time with you and slow down. Try "half-speed" randori. Give yourself time to think. Your judo analyzing skills will come with experience, and with time, you will be able to say, "Aha! That's where I messed up!", as you are preparing to execute your breakfall. The amount of time is hard to predict. Give it at *least* a year. Once you have some experience with off-balancing, you will know how to make uke step with only moderate tugging. The step uke takes is an attempt to regain balance. So before uke finishes his step, you have to act decisively. You must confound uke's self-righting heuristic by applying force and perhaps blocking the stepping foot before uke can plant it. The idea is to sweep the stepping foot to force uke to accept an even less stable stance, with feet to close together, or two wide apart. Someone who uses proper stepping technique never has his foot far from the mat, so your window of opportunity is small. Take turns using poor footwork with large steps (and the occasional foot crossing) to allow tori a larger window. Because the window of opportunity can be small, things won't come together until your body has learned to throw without you having to consciously direct the body through all of the steps. This muscle memory can only be developed through much practice. This cannot be rushed no matter how hard you try. The only way to teach the body to throw is to practice throwing via uchi komi or kata. Let no mat time opportunities go to waste! (But don't aggrivate any injuries.) I recommend that you read the book, "The Inner Game of Tennis" by W. Timothy Gallwey to get a better explanation of why conscious control is not useful for sports with "hard real time" constraints. It should be available at your public library. (I think there's a version of this book for golfers as well, so pick the one which you are most likely to find useful.) Once you (or rather, your muscles) know a number of throws which work in a variety of directions, you will then be able to work on combinations. The best combinations are improvised, but some ideas can be found in the book, "Critical Judo", by Des Marwood. But remember, that book, or any other, only lists a few possible combinations. There are others which may be better if uke doesn't react in a "textbook manner". The idea of "pushing when pulled" or "pulling when pushed" is not all there is to know about redirecting force. You can pull in a straight line, or in a curve. Pushing can be forward and down, not just forward. You must redirect force in a useful direction that allows you to execute a throw. The exact directions change from situation to situation, but your instructors can give some starting points. Note that the relative heights of the two players can cause changes in the way force is redirected. But this is just a matter of experience. As an aid to "maximum efficiency" you should examine your gripping technique. Some grips allow more of your effort to be directed at moving your opponent, rather than merely stretching the material of his gi. The basic idea is to remove all the slack from the material of the gi that is between your two gripping hands. It's hard to describe examples of this in words, but if you mention it to higher belts in your club, they should be able to show you what I mean. A rule of thumb is that uke is most easily off balanced when "stretched out". When applying a pull to uke's elbow, you must really want to "snatch" your elbow close to you (so you are less stretched out) and at the same time, "snatch" uke's elbow away from him. This takes effort, sometimes *lots* if your setup wasn't very strong. Try to string as many combinations together as possible. Once you have uke reacting to your moves, you should be in control. After one attack, uke is only a fraction of a step behind you, but if you attack again before uke completes his reaction, you have gained another fraction of a step. After a while uke will be far enough behind that you are a "whole step" ahead, which should yield enough advantage to complete the throw. Try to keep relaxed arms. When your arms are stiff, uke can feel your body movements and that telegraphs your intent. This is particularly disasterous when attempting o-soto gari because the counterthrows are quite fast to do. You must *want* to throw! Though consideration for uke is nice, half- hearted attempts allow neither you nor uke to learn. This desire to throw can arise if you have a competition mentality. Whatever you do, don't stand around. If necessary, imagine that there are more points for throwing in a shorter amount of time. Imagine that you are practicing quick throws so that you can extracate yourself from an assailant to help someone else. If your ukes just don't like falling that much, try throwing uke onto a crash pad. The judo mats are firm to allow better footing and therefore compromise their cushioning ability. But if you are not competing with uke and stepping around, you can agree on a starting position and throw into the crash pad. Well, that's enough babbling from me. My final word of advice is to never miss a practice unless you really have to. Though you may not feel it, your subconscious is learning everytime you perform a technique, or have one performed on you. It may take a year, or maybe two, but someday not too far off, your subconscious will make itself known. It could manifest itself in a foot sweep that works for the first time, or an improvised combination that just does wonders.