HOW TO BE A GOOD UKE ==================== > >Paul said ------------- > > > >e.g uke attacks and nage defends counters with nikkyo say then a good > >uke (experienced and honest) will do his best to attack nage's centre > >once more .So whats the point of escaping out of the technique. > >Of course a very good nage such as Chiba sensei will not give uke > >another chance at his centre but uke should flow with nage's force > >looking to redirct it to his benefit,it's not as simple as screwing with > >his technique but screwing with A Very Good nage's technique is the > >quickest way to end up dead because you are simply offering your self up > >as easy meat. > From: Patricia Anne Matthews -------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is turning into 'how to be a good uke". What makes a good uke? > > I guess this depends on the > situation - if you are being uke when nage is trying to demonstrate a > point in technique then you are not being 'a good uke' if you are continually > trying to attack while (for example) they're demonstarating the correct hand > position for something - your job is to stay still so they can demonstrate on > you. > If you're uke for an inexperienced nage then they arent going to learn > anything if you are smacking them everytime they leave themselves open - > you'd do better to point out that they move in such a way that you cant hit them > and to show them which way they should be trying to move you. > > At other times you need to give a committed and energetic attack and keep > attacking for nage to perform the technique - or if you are doing basic > technique you may need to be solid and heavy to move so that nage gets a feel > for the 'weak point'. > > Judging the correct level of attack as uke is a difficult problem. Particuarly > when you dont know nage. I tend to attack on medium setting (gass mark 4) > until I get a feel for what nage wants. > > SO I guess I'd disagree with Paul and say that learning Aikido is a bit > like a complicated dance - you have to work at the same tempo > if your partners waltzing you dont want to try and rock and roll ;-) > From: Roger Plomish ------------------------------------------------- Dear Tricia, Just my 2 cents. I think that an experienced aikidoka should move for their inexperienced partners. If they don't place the hand correctly, you do it for them--and then compliment them on how well they've done without letting them know that it was really you who did the technique. People need to know where to place their bodies--and you can fulfil that by placing your body in the correct position for them. Resisiting a junior student does nothing for them except give them cause to use more strength than is necessary for the technique. Confidence is a great booster for keeping people in this most difficult art called aikido. If "White Lies" are necessary, so be it. After all, if words don't work then do it with your body. By the way, this is great training for your own uke with more experienced people. In Yoshinkan Aikido, we give 80%, holding 20% back for reflection and self-protection. I personally think this is a good policy--even if I was not involved with the Yoshinkan. From: Alan D Bell --------------------------------------------- Patricia Anne Matthews writes: > This is turning into 'how to be a good uke". What makes a good uke? > > I guess this depends on the > situation - if you are being uke when nage is trying to demonstrate a > point in technique then you are not being 'a good uke' if you are continually > trying to attack while (for example) they're demonstarating the correct hand > position for something - your job is to stay still so they can demonstrate on > you. I agree - and I think everyone else will too - Aikido is difficult enough to demonstrate and understand as it is without the added difficulty of attempting to keep uke off posture and moving at all times. > If you're uke for an inexperienced nage then they arent going to learn > anything if you are smacking them everytime they leave themselves open - > you'd do better to point out that they move in such a way that you cant hit them > and to show them which way they should be trying to move you. Again I agree - but at times techniques need to be stopped and countered to point out the faults - even some experienced Aikidoka will attempt to take short cuts from time to time with their techniques I believe that it is then up to uke to stop/escape/counter the technique to point this out - this is a much more pointed lesson than going with the technique, performing ukemi then getting up and saying "Oh by the way this technique didn't work" ! > > At other times you need to give a committed and energetic attack and keep > attacking for nage to perform the technique - or if you are doing basic > technique you may need to be solid and heavy to move so that nage gets a feel > for the 'weak point'. > > Judging the correct level of attack as uke is a difficult problem. Particuarly > when you dont know nage. I tend to attack on medium setting (gass mark 4) > until I get a feel for what nage wants. Surely nage should be performing the technique according to your attack not the attack being tempered to nage's technique (beginner grades excepted of course). > > SO I guess I'd disagree with Paul and say that learning Aikido is a bit > like a complicated dance - you have to work at the same tempo > if your partners waltzing you dont want to try and rock and roll ;-) This is a valid point I believe - it is often very advantageous to gaining a better feel for the movement of the body and ki to work together with uke to gain a feeling of harmony. My sensei will take me aside every so often for 5 or 10 minutes and I will continuously attack him,he will perform techniques with emphasis on improving the movement of his ki and using this more in the technique rather than mechanical means. From: Neil McKellar -------------------------------------------- Tricia writes: > I guess this depends on the > situation - if you are being uke when nage is trying to demonstrate a > point in technique then you are not being 'a good uke' if you are continually > trying to attack while (for example) they're demonstarating the correct hand > position for something - your job is to stay still so they can demonstrate on > you. Ummm...I beg to differ. In the first place, I've been told many times by my instructors to keep attacking during demonstration. This doesn't mean that you should be trying to work around what your instructor is doing. Simply that you remain true to the original intention of the attack and endeavour to stay connected to the instructor's center. In the second place, those times when I have allowed this intention and connection to be lost during demonstration (i.e. I stop attacking to listen to the instructor, or to "make it easier" for one of us), I have almost always found myself on the receiving end of very hard technique. I would say this is usually a result of the instructor carrying on from where we left off, but I've fallen behind. From: wil Macaulay ---------------------------------------- As a beginner, one of the things I am trying to work on is giving a good, committed, _appropriate_ attack. Let me try to explain. A previous poster (sorry, I hit the delete key too soon) said something about nage responding to uke's attack, whatever and however it is - this is fine for randori, but it may make difficult to practice a particular technique. I remember vividly a class with Henry Kono Sensei, who called me up for ukemi for ikkyo. I attacked with what I thought was a committed attack and he stopped me, saying that 1. I was attacking his hand, not his centre 2. I was too 'heavy' - and not giving myself room to move 3. If I did that on the street, he wouldn't _do_ ikkyo, he would just do _this_ and dropped his center and I fell (not very elegantly, because I was expecting ikkyo!). His point was that when we are _doing_ Aikido, we work with whatever attack uke gives us, and respond appropriately, but when we are _practicing_ a technique, uke needs to give an attack for which that response would be appropriate. Otherwise nage gets committed to 'making the technique work' at all costs which is often possible for big strong guys, but gets in the way of Aikido. The other thing that I find useful as uke is to try to imagine the 'next step' in the attack - after the strike in shomenuchi iriminage, for example, nage is behind you, so obviously the thing you want to do is get back behind him. That means you try to turn towards him, (think of trying to do an elbow strike to the neck, for example) he moves and you stay connected and he can execute the technique. If you think that the attack ends at the end of the shomenuchi, there is no need for nage to execute any technique (after all he's now out of the way). If he does want to execute the technique he'll end up dragging you around. As I said, these are just a few things that I have been trying to piece together from a beginner's point of view. YMMV. From: Patricia Anne Matthews ---------------------------------------------------------- Tricia writes: > when nage is trying to demonstrate a > point in technique then you are not being 'a good uke' if you are continually > trying to attack Neil replies: > I've been told many times by my instructors to >keep attacking during demonstration. This doesn't mean that you >should be trying to work around what your instructor is doing. Simply >that you remain true to the original intention of the attack and >endeavour to stay connected to the instructor's center. yes, think the problem is a differnece in semantics (sp?) again. I have no probs with the idea of a committed attack meaning "remain true to the original intention of the attack and endeavour to stay connected to [nage's] center" since in this case it is possible to have an attack which is moderated to uke's ability yet still fully committed but I disagree with a committed attack meaning 'attempt to kill at all costs' since it seems to me that a 'real' attack can only be met by a 'real response' which, if either uke or nage are learning or inexperiencd (and I refuse to define inexperienced !!) then one or both of them are going to get damaged. I guess its the difference between struggling like a fish on a line as your instructor pauses holding you in a certain position to explain something and being dynamically still with your energy poised to move when the instructor permits you to. Does that make any sense? From: Neil McKellar --------------------------------------------- > I guess its the difference between struggling like a fish on a line > as your instructor pauses holding you in a certain position to > explain something and being dynamically still with your energy > poised to move when the instructor permits you to. Does that make > any sense? Yes, this makes sense! Obviously, we already agreed and didn't know it. :-) -- From: Jeff Frane --------------------------------------- Neil McKellar writes: >Tricia writes: >> I guess this depends on the >> situation - if you are being uke when nage is trying to demonstrate a >> point in technique then you are not being 'a good uke' if you are continually >> trying to attack while (for example) they're demonstarating the correct hand >> position for something - your job is to stay still so they can demonstrate on >> you. > >Ummm...I beg to differ. > >In the first place, I've been told many times by my instructors to >keep attacking during demonstration. This doesn't mean that you >should be trying to work around what your instructor is doing. Simply >that you remain true to the original intention of the attack and >endeavour to stay connected to the instructor's center. > Stop! You're both right! Frequently, during a demonstration of technique, the teacher stops the action for a moment so that the class can observe a detail. But it has been continually stressed to me that, as uke, I need to maintain the tension of the encounter even when the action stops. It's like, you know: "zanshin" ?? So, like Tricia wrote: you stop; and like Neil wrote: you keep up the attack. >In the second place, those times when I have allowed this intention >and connection to be lost during demonstration (i.e. I stop attacking >to listen to the instructor, or to "make it easier" for one of us), I >have almost always found myself on the receiving end of very hard >technique. I would say this is usually a result of the instructor >carrying on from where we left off, but I've fallen behind. One of my senseis has a particular issue around this one, and I had better not look at what he is demonstrating, and take my focus off my attack. If he's doing it right in front of my face, maybe, but otherwise I am cautioned to learn with my body and my other senses, rather than to act as though I was one of those people lined up at the edge of the mat -- or I will be sitting on the sideline. And, like Neil writes, if you get behind during the demonstration: OUCH!