IMPORTNATCE OF TRINAING WITH WEAPONS ===================================== From: Doug Barnard ----------------------------------------------- Jeff Frane wrote: >I will note, also, that both Saotome Sensei and Shirata Sensei seem to agree >-- they both explain aikido in terms of the sword, and illustrate the >principles of aikido through the principles of aiki-ken. (Likewise, I >believe, Saito Sensei.) As Saito Sensei is the only guy that O Sensei certified to carry on with weapons training, I believe that you are correct! In my Iwama-style dojo, weapons are introduced immediately. In fact, the 5th kyu test (the first adult test) has a fairly long section of both ken and jo. Kevin Jones wrote: > >I am of the strong opinion that Aikido is an internal art: the form of >the technique is comparatively incidental and the essence of the art >is the mind/body/spirit feel that comprises the interaction between >the partners. The Aikido waza are good exercises for developing this >internal state, and are much more efficient in this role when there is >an explicit understanding of the goal. > >I regard sword practice as considerably more difficult than empty >handed practice since one has to extend this "feeling" to include not >only the parts of your body that you were born with but also this >extra 3 feet of wood/steel - the weapon must become part of you if it >is to be true technique. As to the difficulty of weapons: yes and no. How's that for definitive? Yes, you have to learn how to whip around an unfamiliar hunk of wood. No, because the techniques are the same! I find weapons training to reinforce my taijitsu training. In some ways, not having to deal with another person allows me to concentrate more on the technique. It's a good way to practice when by yourself; I find it (dare I say it and ruin my hardass reputation?)(here goes!) *meditative*. Weapons also seem to concentrate the physical workout of aikido in the upper body, whereas I feel the taijitsu in my lower body. Try doing an hour of hard bokken work with an oversize suburi bokken (almost double the weight of some of those little sticks) and you'll defintely break a good sweat! If you ever get a chance, go by an antique weapons store and hold a *great* katana, preferably one a few hundred years old. There's no problem extending "feeling" through this "inanimate" 3 feet of steel! The problem is not extending! (both your feeling and your credit card limit) It was like holding on to a live wire, I kid you not! > >I find that beginners who try to base their Aikido technique on sword >movement usually get things sadly wrong since their sword movement is >also very wrong. Most beginners initiate a cut with their shoulders, >try to control the end of the cut by muscling the hilt (at best), and >generally have no feel for the sword what-so-ever. Their technique >tends to be the same way. At best, they get some idea of direction >from the concept, but I think that this even is flawed since I think >that Aikido technique has become increasingly subtle (compare O-sensei >in 1938 to O-sensei in 1968) and has evolved beyond its roots. > Well, that's the problem with beginners: they're usually pretty lame! I think that bokken work really got me to thinking about my hips and bringing forth their power. Also, the way that I've been taught is to "wring out a wet rag" at the end of the cut. White knuckles are de reguire for this! Weapons help to get folks moving with "dynamic strength" as opposed to tense muscles. I had a real satori when I first started: how could these advanced types keep swinging those weapons around when I got tired after 5 minutes? Of course, I probably looked like a spastic Tin Woodsman in search of a can of WD-40! > >I disagree with the "learn sword movement and you know technique" >strategy for a number of reasons. Firstly it's adding complication >when the world is already complex enough. Also, I don't like that it >encourages a purely mechanical analysis of technique, and I've never >felt any shihan who I consider worthwhile who just felt mechanical in >technique. True masters have often studied the basic rote mechanics of their art unceasingly! It's when those techniques are so ingrained that they are now part of the essential makeup of the person's soul that they become a master! Kevin, have you ever had a student that you were trying to get a point across to and just couldn't? You try for months, and nothing. Then some clown makes an offhand remark to this person, the light goes on, and they get it! Many times you'll find that breaking up your army into smaller bands and infiltrating from many directions will work when a combined frontal assault repeatedly fails. Sorry about that, I've been re-reading "The Art of War." Anyways, I feel that weapons training does this for me, but then YMMV. > >There are many different teaching strategies in the Aikido world and >both idiots and masters (sometimes holding the same rank :-)) in most >organizations. So, clearly, either strategy *can* work. It's my >opinion, that in general, most people will get to the important stuff >sooner if they concentrate on principles early and tools later. > >Since this difference in strategy was the cause of a split between the >two most senior figures in the Aikido world about 20 years back, I >doubt we'll get everyone to agree here :-). Sure we will! Look out, I've got this mackerel, and I know how to use it! Now agree with me, or you'll get a taste of Mackerel Waza! (I hear it's very palatable in a light bearnaise sauce, and with a good cabernet!) From: Kevin Jones ---------------------------------- >>>>> "Doug" == Doug Barnard writes: Doug> As Saito Sensei is the only guy that O Sensei certified to Doug> carry on with weapons training, This is another one of those statements that is clearly true to students of Saito-sensei and clearly false to everyone else :-). Doug> As to the difficulty of weapons: yes and no. How's that for Doug> definitive? Yes, you have to learn how to whip around an Doug> unfamiliar hunk of wood. No, because the techniques are the Doug> same! This is also style dependent, since in my style they are not the same! I think it depends on what you mean by the same - we're lost in a maze of twisty semantics, all alike :-) [and you have to be from a previous computer gamer generation to appreciate that!]. The principles are the same but the form is quite different since you are performing a physical movement with a weapon and not another person - and 3' of wood and 6+-' of person don't move the same, in my experience. I've never seen how they could be the same movement, unless you distort both movements somewhat, since my movement is not the "same" for any two people. I think this is clearly an area where one's opinion is directly related to one's evaluation of the importance of form. I know that Saito-sensei places primary emphasis on form; most of my teachers, (including Tohei-sensei), on the other hand place less emphasis on form and much more on feeling. My understanding of bokken work is undoubtedly closer to Tohei-sensei's than it is to Saito-sensei's, so you can draw your own conclusions. Doug> *meditative*. Weapons also seem to concentrate the physical Doug> workout of aikido in the upper body, But isn't that considered a bad thing? One of the keys to good bokken work, is I think to just use the upper body as a connection to the center. It's certainly true that if you do hundreds or thousands of cuts with an iron jo that if your not connected to your center, you don't get to the end :-). Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point? Doug> If you ever get a chance, go by an antique weapons store and Doug> hold a *great* katana, preferably one a few hundred years Doug> old. There's no problem extending "feeling" through this Doug> "inanimate" 3 feet of steel! The problem is not extending! Doug> (both your feeling and your credit card limit) It was like Doug> holding on to a live wire, I kid you not! Having owned a (reasonably) nice katana, I know what you mean :-). It is still a problem to keep the feeling under your control though! Doug> Also, Doug> the way that I've been taught is to "wring out a wet rag" at Doug> the end of the cut. And I've been taught that this is exactly what one shouldn't do, since it relies on using muscle to control the bokken. We were taught that if you have the correct feeling then you don't need to do anything to stop the cut, it will just come to rest when it reaches its natural place. This took me years to understand. What I think this really means, in physical terms, is that the entire body serves as a buffer, so there is no need for stress in any particular muscle. Different styles again :-). Doug> Kevin, have you ever had a student that you were trying to Doug> get a point across to and just couldn't? You try for months, Doug> and nothing. Then some clown makes an offhand remark to this Doug> person, the light goes on, and they get it! Yep, so often that I encourage people to see as many "clowns" as possible :-). I love it when a student hasn't been getting something despite my best efforts, and picks up something from someone else. They gasp with delight and come back and tell me this gem. Someone standing nearby says "but that's exactly what he's been saying for weeks". I always knew that despite my best intentions I must subconsciously teach most of my classes in medieval Welsh, which accounts for this phenomenon perfectly :-). Seriously, this is exactly why a person some consider a great teacher might be a disaster for someone with a different perception. That's why there are lots of teachers, and different styles, so everyone can find something that works, no? Doug> Sure we will! Look out, I've got this mackerel, and I know Doug> how to use it! Now agree with me, or you'll get a taste of Doug> Mackerel Waza! (I hear it's very palatable in a light Doug> bearnaise sauce, and with a good cabernet!) I'm a big fan of Mackerel. My style is different though :-). You can lose the sauce and the wine and just stick it in a smoker for a while. Come to think of it, just as is in sushi would do too. See we can agree on principles but not on form again :-) :-). Hmm, this discussion has almost been substantive - must be time to get back to some irrelevancies. People might start to think this is an Aikido list :-). From: Joseph Toman ------------------------------------------------ Kevin Jones writes: > I find that if you can isolate the correct feeling in situations that > are much simpler to deal with than Aikido technique (and *much* > simpler than sword technique) then the psycho-kinesthetic feedback > that leads to good Aikido is much easier to internalize. This can then > be applied to technique and then once it is understood, applied to > more advanced circumstances like sword and bokken. So good principle > leads to good Aikido leads to good sword and I think this is a natural > progression. > > I disagree with the "learn sword movement and you know technique" > strategy for a number of reasons. Firstly it's adding complication > when the world is already complex enough. Also, I don't like that it > encourages a purely mechanical analysis of technique, and I've never > felt any shihan who I consider worthwhile who just felt mechanical in > technique. I'm not sure that it encourages a purely mechanical analysis of technique. Something like that, if it's present in the sword work then the mechanical aspect is pervasive throughout the system, and whether they teach sword sooner or later won't matter; it will be mechanical. "Aiki-ken is just a pedagogic tool, son, no better and no worse than the sensei that teaches it" > There are many different teaching strategies in the Aikido world and > both idiots and masters (sometimes holding the same rank :-)) in most > organizations. So, clearly, either strategy *can* work. It's my > opinion, that in general, most people will get to the important stuff > sooner if they concentrate on principles early and tools later. I agree with the 'principles early' theory, but this is exactly why we stress early work with bokken. The problem with standard partner practice is that newbies come in with the expectation that the goal of the exercise is to plant uke on his butt. So they get up in their shoulders and muscle through the technique, and 'succeed' if uke falls down, regardless of good technique or not. With bokken practice, there's no goal that can be seen early on; they're just standing there flailing a stick around. Since they can't get instant gratification, they have to rethink what 'success' is, and if they're told they're learning principle, they'll latch on to that. And from this they can learn to work principle in their empty handed practice as well. Also, newbies can always work out with their bokken, and don't have to fear that they'll look foolish if they mess up, as opposed to the standard cry "Is this right?" that you hear from them during partner practice. So I guess that's my opinion; bokken are cool. Work early, work often. JO LENGTHS =========== >Hey all - I want to buy my first white oak jo and have been told that >length-wise it should reach from my armpit to the ground. Careful >scientific measurement indicates that this would be about 60" (I'm 6'4"), >but in the catalogs I look at like Bujin and Kioto (?) the longest they >make are 54" or 55". So is this a big deal? > >I could get a 6' bo and cut it off I suppose. > >- Ross From: Hal Davis ------------------------------------------ At longer than 55" or so, you're talking custom jos. A friend of mine made a couple for me. Good news, they feel great. Bad news, he ignored my instructions, used wood that's not very shatterproof (maple), and he varnished them. Mine work OK for solo work except for needing talc so they'll slide through my hands. However, at our last Shochugeiko we were practicing jo work, and I was asked to use a normal jo. Mine is the right length for me, but with the limited room at a major clinic, Sensei wanted the shorter stick to minimize the odds of whacking someone upside the head. Does Nerf make oversize jos? If you decide to do something fancier than whacking off a bo, here are a couple of hints. There's no wood more highly regarded for jos than real Japanese heartwood white oak. But you can't get it, and you can't afford it, so nevermind. Run of the mill white oak isn't in the same class. Also highly regarded for its toughness and break resistance is hickory, widely used for axe and shovel handles, etc. Here in Texas hickory is hard to come by, but we use pecan, which is essentially the same type of wood. (Besides, pecan is the Texas State Tree). You won't be able to find a lathe to turn a stick long enough to make a decent jo. So, you don't turn it on a lathe. You make it the same way broom handles are made: with a router. As long as you're using a router, you have the freedom to give the stick a non-round cross section. Mine are octagonal, and I like it a LOT. The diameter on mine is about 1.125" measured flat to flat. From: Joseph Toman ------------------------------------------ Hal Davis writes: > 1. At longer than 55" or so, you're talking custom jos. At longer than 55" or so, you're talking bo. YES! > 2. There's no wood more highly regarded for jos than real Japanese > heartwood white oak. I like purpleheart, myself. Nasty to work with though, and it's hard to keep it from warping, even if you make laminates. > 3. But you can't get it, and you can't afford it, so never mind. Run of > the mill white oak isn't in the same class. > > 4. Also highly regarded for its toughness and break resistance is > hickory, widely used for axe and shovel handles, etc. I made my bokken out of hickory, it's a very unpleasant wood to carve, very fibrous so it's easy to shave off more than you intended. The bokken came out nice, though. > 5. Here in Texas hickory is hard to come by, but we use pecan, which is > essentially the same type of wood. (Besides, pecan is the Texas State Tree). > > 6. As long as you're using a router, you have the freedom to give the > stick a non-round cross section. Mine are octagonal, and I like it a LOT. Octagonal is good, and easier than round. > 7. The diameter on mine is about 1.125" measured flat to flat. Most of the bo I've made are 0.875", which I do because they're laminates and purpleheart is a very heavy wood. Mine is 1", which is good because I can't foresee any circumstance in which it might break, and it's so heavy no one wants to borrow it. :-) From: Hal Davis ------------------------------------------ A couple of folks (Joseph Toman and Roger Plomish) have remarked that at 54-55" it's a bo, not a jo. I disagree, but I'm open to persuasion. If the jolly green giant dropped his penknife, it isn't necessarily a two-handed sword (Claymore) when I pick it up. It's just a great big penknife. The rule of thumb I've heard is that a jo resting on the floor by a standing man should top out between the nipple and the armpit. I'm 74" tall, and Ross is 76" tall, my armpit is 58" off the ground, and I assume Ross' armpit is about 60" above the ground. Now suppose that I practiced karate, and wanted to use a bo, which, as I understand it, should be taller than me. If I use a bo for a jo, what do I use for a bo? We have also remarked on the thickness of my stick. The one my friend made for me is made of maple (NOT according to my request and specifications -- and he varnished it, too), so the wood isn't as dense as it would otherwise be. Roger remarked how making the stick heavier would tend to build strength, which is something we don't necessarily want in aikido. In response, recognizing that I am still mudansha, I like doing my bokken cuts with a suburito (spelling?). I don't do it for strength (although it does build strength), but because it slows me down and corrects my posture. Also, if I ever do need to use a stick for self-defense (much more likely than with a katana), I'd like to be able to use a heavy stick (baseball bat, tire iron, section of rebar or angle iron, or one of those other things you always see in the Segal movies after the drug deal goes bad in an old waterfront warehouse. See also the foundry scene in Terminator II). From: Ross Yahnke ------------------------------------------------ Bu-Jin has custom length to 60" jo's made out of a laminate they call dynawood. So, 6' 4" tall guy that I am, I was considering getting one of those. It may not be real Japanese heartwood white oak, but hey it's only my first jo! From: Charles Yeomans -----------------------------------------------------> > Bu-Jin has custom length to 60" jo's made out of a laminate they call > dynawood. So, 6' 4" tall guy that I am, I was considering getting one of > those. It may not be real Japanese heartwood white oak, but hey it's only > my first jo! > > - Ross I played (briefly) with one of those jos recently. WHile I can certainly see the merits of unbreakability, I didn't really like the jo. It lacked that "live" feeling that one gets from a nice piece of wood. From: Jun Akiyama --------------------------------- On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Charles Yeomans wrote: > > Bu-Jin has custom length to 60" jo's made out of a laminate they call > > dynawood. > > I played (briefly) with one of those jos recently. WHile I can certainly > see the merits of unbreakability, I didn't really like the jo. It lacked > that "live" feeling that one gets from a nice piece of wood. I have one of Bujin's Dymondwood jo, and I'm pretty happy with it. I agree that it doesn't feel as "alive" as a "real" wooden weapon (like my bokken, personally craftet by David Leong) It also has this sticky feeling to it -- the jo doesn't slide through my hands too well when I need to do some suburi/kata. However, I _do_ like its heft. I tried out Bujin's hickory jo, but found it light as a toothpick. I need the heft, being a 130 pound weakling... From: Hal Davis ------------------------------------ At 10:54 AM 11/21/95 -0600, you wrote: >Bu-Jin has custom length to 60" jo's made out of a laminate they call >dynawood. So, 6' 4" tall guy that I am, I was considering getting one of >those. It may not be real Japanese heartwood white oak, but hey it's only >my first jo! > >- Ross > Not everyone can afford to pay $70-$80 (with or without brass rings) for their first jo. However, Bu-Jin's reputation for quality is excellent, and if the jo is to your taste and your tastes don't change, and you keep on practicing jo work, you should be well satisfied. From: Joseph Toman -------------------------------------------- Hal Davis writes: > > A couple of folks (Joseph Toman and Roger Plomish) have remarked that at > 54-55" it's a bo, not a jo. I disagree, but I'm open to persuasion. Everybody has their own definition. It comes down to whether you practice jo or bo with this stick. > > If the jolly green giant dropped his penknife, it isn't necessarily a > two-handed sword (Claymore) when I pick it up. It's just a great big > penknife. The rule of thumb I've heard is that a jo resting on the floor by > a standing man should top out between the nipple and the armpit. ??? No, with that diameter it would be a caber, or a redwood. > I'm 74" tall, and Ross is 76" tall, my armpit is 58" off the ground, > and I assume Ross' armpit is about 60" above the ground. > > Now suppose that I practiced karate, and wanted to use a bo, which, as I > understand it, should be taller than me. If I use a bo for a jo, what do I > use for a bo? Bo, at least as we practice it, should be between chin and nose height, and not tapered. You're thinking of rokushaku (?) bo, which is a particular sort used in Okinawan martial arts. > > We have also remarked on the thickness of my stick. The one my friend made > for me is made of maple (NOT according to my request and specifications -- > and he varnished it, too), so the wood isn't as dense as it would otherwise be. > > Roger remarked how making the stick heavier would tend to build strength, > which is something we don't necessarily want in aikido. There's nothing wrong with strength, the problem is when you don't understand how and when to use it. From: Alan Shumak <04004-6@MSN.COM> --------------------------------- Charles Yeomans said: >I played (briefly) with one of those jos recently. WHile I >can certainly see the merits of unbreakability, I >didn't really like the jo. It lacked that "live" >feeling that one gets from a nice piece of wood. If its anything like "Ramin"(sp), I used a Jo amde of it till it broke From: Michael Martin ------------------------------------------ Regarding jos, perhaps I am a little ol' fashion, but I don't like the laminates -- they feel dead. I bought one from Bujin, but gave it away as it didn't feel right to me. As for the octagonal ones, they also feel funny; I find it difficult to slide my hands around them. However, I concur with the Japanese white oak recommendation some people made -- I've only broken two or three of them in eight years. From: Hal Davis ------------------------------------ >> 2/ Is there a standard length for the Jo, or is Jo length based on height? We kinda went round about this a few weeks ago, but let me tell you what I came away from it with. The "standard" jo length is 50 1/4" long. I don't like standard jo length, because I am not a standard Japanese length person. Besides, I ask, WHY is it 50 1/4"? When a person is too short to handle a standard length jo, sensei frequently advises them to whack off the jo to underarm length. That prompted me to discuss and think about "jo-ness." What is it about a jo that makes it a distinctly different weapon from escrima sticks, tonfa, and bos? I believe it is that you can hold it over your head with one hand on each end. If you have to move your head out of the way to do that, then you must have a bo. If it clears the top of your head by more than an inch or two, you're missing out on the reach you should have with a jo. You can hold an escrima stick over your head with a hand on each end, but the stick is so far over your head that it's clearly not a jo. So, my answer is that a jo is a stick that you can hold over your head with a hand on each end, and the stick clear the top of your head. For people with the usual proportion of arm length to overall height, this will approximate a stick that stands on the ground and will just fit under the armpit. I'm a bit taller than "standard" and I had some jos made for me that are 54" long. Quite comfy. ETT QUEST CONT -------------- From: Hiroaki Izumi ------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 9 May 1996 10:31:37 -1000 Richard Reffner wrote: > If you were to safely pick up your katana you would grab it with >your left thumb over the tsuba to insure the blade does not slip out when >you pick the katana up to do whatever. The only natural way would be with >the blade in. Try it. You just can't grab it correctly with the blade out. >Should the bokken be any different? > JO'S STRENGTHENED WITH BRASS RINGS ==================================== From: Joseph Toman -----------------------------------------Hal Davis writes: > > At 02:29 PM 11/21/95 -0700, you wrote: > >Brass rings? Where are they placed on the jo? What size are they? > > > >I'm surprised to hear of someone doing this. Will they do the rings > >in iron instead? :-) Do they do it only with particular types of > >wood? > > They're flush with the outside of the jo, and it looks like they're there to > keep the end of the (synthetic) jo from "fraying." They shouldn't have to do this if they laminate correctly. Kingfisher makes a pressure-treated laminate jo, and they don't need this. From: Jun Akiyama --------------------------------- On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Neil McKellar wrote: > > They're flush with the outside of the jo, and it looks like they're there to > > keep the end of the (synthetic) jo from "fraying." > > Hmmm...ok, that makes sense. How wide are the rings? Are they raised > or level with the surface of the jo? They're level. One of the yudansha at our dojo got one -- the rings are coming off right now, though, after only one year of nominal use. (I got a "normal" dymondwood jo.) Bujin is very good with returns, though. I returned my first dymondwood jo when it chipped off a chunk from one end. From: Neil McKellar ------------------------------------------- Hal wrote: > Not everyone can afford to pay $70-$80 (with or without brass rings) for > their first jo. However, Bu-Jin's reputation for quality is excellent, and > if the jo is to your taste and your tastes don't change, and you keep on > practicing jo work, you should be well satisfied. Brass rings? Where are they placed on the jo? What size are they? I'm surprised to hear of someone doing this. Will they do the rings in iron instead? :-) Do they do it only with particular types of wood? Wow, this peaks my curiousity... -- Neil McKellar (mckellar@cs.ualberta.ca) From owner-aikido-l@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Tue Nov 21 23:52:24 1995 Reply-To: Aikido List Sender: Aikido List From: Hal Davis Subject: Re: Brass rings??? To: Multiple recipients of list AIKIDO-L Content-Length: 908 X-Lines: 24 Status: RO At 02:29 PM 11/21/95 -0700, you wrote: >Hal wrote: >> Not everyone can afford to pay $70-$80 (with or without brass rings) for >> their first jo. However, Bu-Jin's reputation for quality is excellent, and >> if the jo is to your taste and your tastes don't change, and you keep on >> practicing jo work, you should be well satisfied. > >Brass rings? Where are they placed on the jo? What size are they? > >I'm surprised to hear of someone doing this. Will they do the rings >in iron instead? :-) Do they do it only with particular types of >wood? > >Wow, this peaks my curiousity... >-- >Neil McKellar (mckellar@cs.ualberta.ca) > They're flush with the outside of the jo, and it looks like they're there to keep the end of the (synthetic) jo from "fraying." Hal Davis student at Aikibudo Dojo, Lewisville (Dallas) Texas member Jiyushinkai Jiyushinkai Home Page: http://www.twics.com/~umma/jiyushin.html From owner-aikido-l@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Tue Nov 21 23:53:02 1995 Reply-To: Aikido List Sender: Aikido List From: Neil McKellar Subject: Re: Brass rings??? To: Multiple recipients of list AIKIDO-L Content-Length: 284 X-Lines: 7 Status: RO > They're flush with the outside of the jo, and it looks like they're there to > keep the end of the (synthetic) jo from "fraying." Hmmm...ok, that makes sense. How wide are the rings? Are they raised or level with the surface of the jo? -- Neil McKellar (mckellar@cs.ualberta.ca) BOOKEN POSITION WHEN SITTING IN SEIZA ======================= From: John Fong ------------------------------------------ 1/ With the bokken at your side, should the "blade" edge be pointing away from you when you sit in seiza? In regards to 1/, a fellow student went to a seminar. While sitting in seiza, the aikidoka sitting next to her reached over and flipped the bokken so the blade edge pointed towards her. He stated that proper etiquette was to have the edge pointing towards yourself. Based on my limited experience I think he was wrong. I know there are different styles out their. I'm just trying to gauge how similar or diverse the styles are. From: Nathan Knox Sherrard ------------------------------------------ On Thu, 9 May 1996, John Fong wrote: > Here are two questions that I've been pondering. > > 1/ With the bokken at your side, should the "blade" edge be > pointing away from you when you sit in seiza? To the best of my knowledge, away. I can see how the blade lying towards you might be considered etiquette, but it's nothing I ever heard before. From: Dave Balistreri ------------------------------------------ At 01:14 AM 5/9/96 -0700, you wrote: >Here are two questions that I've been pondering. > >1/ With the bokken at your side, should the "blade" edge be > pointing away from you when you sit in seiza? Blade edge should point away from you. From: Richard Reffner ------------------------------------------ If the bokken were a live blade and it were to be placed on one's left side one's left thumb would naturaly fall onto the tsuba in a proper way as to keep the blade from slipping out of the saya WHEN at the ready - if the blade is placed toward the kenshi. From: Patricia Anne Matthews ------------------------------------------ 1/ With the bokken at your side, should the "blade" edge be pointing away from you when you sit in seiza? I've always been told that the blade should point away from you and be at your left handside. Different approaches may be related to the question of which way the sword should lie in the sword rack - I think it goes that if the handle is to the right then it is easy to draw and this implies that you dont trust the people that are there - therefore the polite version is to put the handle to the left. Extending this arguement would mean that when the bokken was at your side the polite 'no-I-dont-think-you're-a-threat'position would be on your right - maybe the turning the blade inwards is a 'I-dont-think-you're-much-of- a-threat' position? There again maybe its a safety thing? From: Kjartan Clausen ------------------------------------------ John Fong said: } } Here are two questions that I've been pondering. } } 1/ With the bokken at your side, should the "blade" edge be } pointing away from you when you sit in seiza? I asked my sensei in Katori Shinto Ryu about it and she said that you were supposed to have your sword on the left side, edge outwards. There were two reasons for this. The first is that it makes it easy to pick up and use (in case that is needed) and the other reason is that a sword has two sides, omote and ura (front and back) and that it is considered inpolite to show the ura side of the sword. She is BTW the daughter of Sugino sensei, grandmaster of KSR., so I guess she knows what she were talking about. And then I was told by one of my iaido teachers that in that style, you were supposed to have the sword on the _right_ side, edge _inwards_ to appear peaceful and friendly. The one way I've encountered the most is the first one though. From: Jon Pardue ------------------------------------------ >} Here are two questions that I've been pondering. >} >} 1/ With the bokken at your side, should the "blade" edge be >} pointing away from you when you sit in seiza? > >I asked my sensei in Katori Shinto Ryu about it and she said that you were >supposed to have your sword on the left side, edge outwards. OK, here's a *REALLY* stupid question: Is the hilt of the bokken pointing toward the front of the room or the back? It seems like it should be the front, so right-handed folks could reach across themselves and "draw" the bokken up and out quickly (like a cavalry saber), but I've seen other counter-intuitive things in this art. ;) From pam Thu May 9 16:35:51 1996 --------------------------------- jon said > Is the hilt of teh bokken pointing to the back or the front of the room.. This one might be easier to answer - I'd say it should be the front without question. Mainly becasue laying a sword down besides you while you are kneeling and having the blade going forwards would be really difficult without having to hold it by the blade (big no no!). So what if you have 2 weapons, bokken and jo? Is there any ettiquette for which goes where? From: Butanta ------------------------------------------- At 01:14 9/05/96 -0700, you wrote: >Here are two questions that I've been pondering. > >1/ With the bokken at your side, should the "blade" edge be > pointing away from you when you sit in seiza? I was taught that the "blade" should always face the opposite side of the kamiza. It's considered an offense if the blade is turned to the kamiza and to O Sensei's picture. From: "J.P. DIESCH" ------------------------------------------------------- > >} > >} 1/ With the bokken at your side, should the "blade" edge be > >} pointing away from you when you sit in seiza? > > > >I asked my sensei in Katori Shinto Ryu about it and she said that you were > >supposed to have your sword on the left side, edge outwards. > > OK, here's a *REALLY* stupid question: > > Is the hilt of the bokken pointing toward the front of the room or the > back? It seems like it should be the front, so right-handed folks could > reach across themselves and "draw" the bokken up and out quickly (like > a cavalry saber), but I've seen other counter-intuitive things in this > art. ;) > Not *THAT* stupid a Q.! ;> the hilt is facing forward. Always. Jon. From: Jun Akiyama ----------------------------------- On Thu, 9 May 1996, Cady Goldfield wrote: > If you're right-handed! Is the protocol different for left-handed aikidoka, > or does the assumption of right-handedness dictate that everyone place the > hilt to the left? I don't think the protocol changes as far as I know -- lefties (those sinister people) are supposed to conform to right-handedness. Conformity -- that awful Japanese quality... I don't know -- maybe we as a race didn't think it fashionaby correct or something to be a left-handed swordsmen. I think it would have been tactically an advantage, but who knows? From: Nathan Knox Sherrard ----------------------------------------------- > If you're right-handed! Is the protocol different for left-handed aikidoka, > or does the assumption of right-handedness dictate that everyone place the > hilt to the left? > > Cady Goldfield > cadyg@elderhostel.org > Hmmm, as far as I know, the sword is always held the same way, i.e., a left handed person does not hold the sword with the left hand forward. Since you're holding it the same way, you would obviously place it in the same position beside you. From: Chuck Gordon ---------------------------------------- Reference the fellow moving someone's weapon during a seminar: Sheesh. He's lucky he didn't draw back a bloody stub. Talk about breaches of etiquette! How about: NEVER EVER touch someone else's weapons without permission!!! EVER!!! I've had to restrain myself from getting a little ballistic over people grabbing my weapons who didn't know better, but they were just being ignorant, they WEREN'T trying to teach ME a point of etiquette. Oh boy. Sorry for the rant. It's been a tough day so far ... From: Hiroaki Izumi ---------------------------------------------- On Thu, 9 May 1996 10:57:38 -0700 Jun Akiyama wrote: >On Thu, 9 May 1996, Cady Goldfield wrote: >> If you're right-handed! Is the protocol different for left-handed aikidoka, >> or does the assumption of right-handedness dictate that everyone place the >> hilt to the left? > >I don't think the protocol changes as far as I know -- lefties (those >sinister people) are supposed to conform to right-handedness. Conformity >-- that awful Japanese quality... > >I don't know -- maybe we as a race didn't think it fashionaby correct or >something to be a left-handed swordsmen. I think it would have been >tactically an advantage, but who knows? > Being that the percentage of southpaws in Japan is less than 7%, trying to teach them to use swords that way may be a waste of time. Actually, there is a good reason for not carrying your sword on your right hip. In Japan, we walk on the left side of the path since we are a sword culture. If you had your sword on your left hip and walked on the right, you would be continuously banging your sword against someone else's or against their leg. To avoid that problem, everyone (except for those infernal 7% southpaws) walks on the left. However, if a southpaw wore their sword on their right hip and walked on the left, they would be banging someone else who would then draw their sword and kill the southpaw. Could the southpaw defend him/her/itself in time? I doubt it. Drawing a sword with your right hand to cut the do of someone on your right is a very natural and direct cut. The southpaw's quickest attack would be to draw from the saya and thrust straight back--a slower and less direct move than the right-hander's cut. Yes, there is the turning away the sword side do cut but it is still not as fast as the one in which the non-sword side is pulled away as in the second kata requirement for many iaido ryu. Perhaps all the people who insisted on carrying their swords on their right hip were killed off due to this reason? Maybe that's why Japan has so few southpaws? However, given that, there are forms for the jo in which the hand positions are switched for the yokomen attack on either side in order to get the best distance advantage of the jo. From: Hiroaki Izumi ------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 9 May 1996 16:35:54 GMT0BST "J.P. DIESCH" > > the hilt is facing forward. Always. > Jon. > Actually, in extremely formal situations such as doing a kata in front of the emperor, you would walk in with the tsuka (hilt) facing backwards and the blade (ha) up in your right hand. The standing bow would be done from this position prior to facing your partner and changing the sword to left hand, tsuka forward, ha upward and bowing to them. Generally, to do such a formal bow in cases which are not that formal might be considered presumptuous. So the tsuka forward rule is good one nonetheless. From: Hiroaki Izumi ----------------------------------------------- On Thu, 9 May 1996 01:14:13 -0700 John Fong >In regards to 1/, a fellow student went to a seminar. While sitting in >seiza, the aikidoka sitting next to her reached over and flipped the >bokken so the blade edge pointed towards her. He stated that proper >etiquette was to have the edge pointing towards yourself. Based on my >limited experience I think he was wrong. > Personally, if that person had touched my bokken without asking, I would have taken it and bonked them on the head with it for being such a lout as to touch it without asking. If it were a real sword, the person, if they were of yudansha rank, should have had their hand cut off for such impertinence or at least their arm/wrist broken. From: Jun Akiyama --------------------------------------- On Thu, 9 May 1996, Hiroaki Izumi wrote: [really good stuff snipped] > Perhaps all the people who insisted on carrying their > swords on their right hip were killed off due to this reason? > Maybe that's why Japan has so few southpaws? Aha! Darwinism in action! > However, given that, there are forms for the jo in which the hand > positions are switched for the yokomen attack on either side in > order to get the best distance advantage of the jo. Like a gyaku yokomen cut, right? I personally like using the jo in my left hand -- it allows me to "feel" like a beginner again... From: Hiroaki Izumi -------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 9 May 1996 11:44:03 -0700 Jun Akiyama wrote: >> However, given that, there are forms for the jo in which the hand >> positions are switched for the yokomen attack on either side in >> order to get the best distance advantage of the jo. > >Like a gyaku yokomen cut, right? > >I personally like using the jo in my left hand -- it allows me to "feel" >like a beginner again... > >> Rock > > Jun It is also good, I understand from a sports/physical therapist friend of mine (and Kendo Nidan), to switch around once in a while to balance off the muscle group usage. He uses suburi with brooms as a therapy for housewives with upper back and shoulder injuries. From: Jeff Frane ------------------------------------------------ Kjartan wrote: > >I asked my sensei in Katori Shinto Ryu about it and she said that you were >supposed to have your sword on the left side, edge outwards. > >And then I was told by one of my iaido teachers that in that style, you were >supposed to have the sword on the _right_ side, edge _inwards_ to appear >peaceful and friendly. > We do it both ways, depending on where you are in the class. We bow in and bow out with the bokken on the right -- out of reach, as it were -- and leave it on the left during class. In theory, a sword on the right is unavailable to the swordsman, but I heard a great story about Chiba Sensei's Iaido teacher, whose name escapes me (he's the fellow in the photographs in the Japanese Swordsmanship book). At any rate, he's getting up there, probably in his late 60s or early 70s, little bitty guy. During an iaido demonstration, he placed the katana on his right, then while still in seiza, hopped over the sword (still in seiza), picked it up, drew and cut in the space of a few seconds. Obviously, placing the sword on the right is a *gesture* not an absolute. --Jeff Frane From: "Joshua Stein (Volt Comp)" --------------------------------------------->---------- If Chiba Sensei's Iaido teacher is the same as my Sensei's (Bookman Sensei) then his name is Mitsazuke(sp?) Sensei. My iaido teacher, Patrick Johnson, told us a riotous tale gained from Bookman Sensei. Apparently he and the rest of the students showed up one day for class and were waved off the mat by Mitsazuke Sensei. He then proceeded to do the Omori Ryu Shoden kata of our school, Muso Shinden Ryo. It was about 10 minutes into the kata before it dawned on Bookman Sensei (and the other students, I suspect) that Mitsazuke Sensei was doing them perfectly IN MIRROR IMAGE with the LEFT hand! As regards "hopped over the sword" Mitsazuke Sensei has said that 'Batto', the last kata in the above, in which the sword in drawn and immediately cut shomen is a cut of the person BEHIND iaite whom one has to go OVER (from suwari waza). This is equivalent to jumping over someone from your knees while drawing and cutting. He has demonstrated this. And he is in his early eighties if my memory serves me (being in my mid forties ;->). From: Joe McParland ------------------------------------------ According to the book, "Jodo - The Way of the Stick" by Micheal Finn, "The exact size of the Shindo Muso Ryu Jo is 4 shaku, 2 sun, and 1 bu, in Japanese measurement. The diameter of the Jo is 8 bu. To translate this to British measurement one 'shaku' would be about one sixteenth inch shorter than a foot, the 'sun' would be about one and a quarter inch, and the 'bu' would be about one eighth of an inch. The overall length of the Jo would be about 50 1/4 inches and the diameter would be about 1 inch. ..." That seems to accomodate most people in "being comfortably under the armpit," which is how we judge. The regular sized jo is a bit too long and unwieldy for some of the kids in the class, and looks like a small toothpick for one fellow who's about 6'5". If it is *too* long (to the point of being unwieldy) the student will trim it to under the armpit. The tall fellow sometimes uses a shorter bo staff. In our class, we have bokken on the left, blade out. We have several Iaido practicioners in the class who would certainly raise a fuss if they thought we were in any way wrong, but I have no further justification. From: Howard Scott ---------------------------------- >Here are two questions that I've been pondering. > >1/ With the bokken at your side, should the "blade" edge be > pointing away from you when you sit in seiza? >In regards to 1/, a fellow student went to a seminar. While sitting in >seiza, the aikidoka sitting next to her reached over and flipped the >bokken so the blade edge pointed towards her. He stated that proper >etiquette was to have the edge pointing towards yourself. Based on my >limited experience I think he was wrong. In our dojo, it's right side, edge inward. The reason is because it's the least aggressive position. The proper etiquette is "When in Rome..." Follow the practices of the dojo you're visiting. Look at what the locals are doing, or ask. Same goes what rank wears hakama. 3 kyu and up in our dojo, but when visiting elsewhere (before shodan) I follow local practice, asking if necessary. We also line up hakamas in the back, non-hakamas in front, which seems to be unusual, but sensei likes it that way. (It also permits advanced people to check and correct the positions and movements of beginners during warm-ups--helpful when there's a large class.) Subject: Re: Bokken and Jo Question ------------------------------------------ If you were to safely pick up your katana you would grab it with your left thumb over the tsuba to insure the blade does not slip out when you pick the katana up to do whatever. The only natural way would be with the blade in. Try it. You just can't grab it correctly with the blade out. Should the bokken be any different? From: Huy Quang Nguyen --------------------------------------------- On Thu, 9 May 1996, Jun Akiyama wrote: > I personally like using the jo in my left hand -- it allows me to "feel" > like a beginner again... > Jun I like using left as well... but i just hate it sometimes cause it really feels awkward doing a jodan gaeshi uchi. Normally with right hand, the jo swings around naturally, but when doing it left handed it has to whip around to get the right hand on top. ugh. From: Kjartan Clausen -------------------------------------- } the hilt is facing forward. Always. Exept when you are standing and are bowing when entering the dojo or when bowing toward shomen/kamiza. ;-) From: Alan D Bell --------------------------------------------- Patricia Anne Matthews writes: > So what if you have 2 weapons, bokken and jo? Is there any ettiquette > for which goes where? Good question !! We were dicussing this with Sensei on tuesday evening - he reckons that when sitting in seiza the Bokken should be next to you (on the left) with the blade pointing away and the Jo should be outside that. I was originally taught that the bokken should go outside the Jo as this would stop the Jo from rolling away !! Sensei had seen both and wasn't particularly bothered as long as we do it HIS way !!! From: Huy Quang Nguyen --------------------------------------------- On Thu, 9 May 1996, John Fong wrote: > Here are two questions that I've been pondering. > > 1/ With the bokken at your side, should the "blade" edge be > pointing away from you when you sit in seiza? > > John > jfong@cibola.aero.calpoly.edu > Thats interesting what everybody else is saying. In our dojo we place the bokken to the left , blade inwards. We're doing it to symbolize that we trust everyone in the room, and that we offer no threat to anyone. So in the same sense, when we're bowing to the shomen, the blade faces into us and not threatening the sensei nor the kamiza. Also I spoke about this with a friend, and another reason is that, If you place the blade out , you can quickly grab the weapon and use it. If it faces in, it takes a little fumbling around before you can get a good grip. Thus, the hilt is placed to the left when its in front of you. Thinking about it, we also place weapons on the rack in the same way, hilt to the left. I would think it would be more appropriate in a kendo or iaido school to place it with hilt to the right and blade outwards. I would think those schools should be quicker at using the weapon anyway. Common sense? From: Kjartan Clausen ------------------------------------------- "David J. Berger" said: } In a message dated 96-05-09 14:52:51 EDT, you write: } } >Personally, if that person had touched my bokken without asking, I } >would have taken it and bonked them on the head with it for being } >such a lout as to touch it without asking. If it were a real sword, } >the person, if they were of yudansha rank, should have had their } >hand cut off for such impertinence or at least their arm/wrist } >broken. } } Where's your love, man? What's love got to do with it? If you are refering to Aikido as such, it's the way of harmony, not love. If someone touched my weapon without asking, that's the same as an attack, so he'd deserve a bonk in the head to return the universe (in general) and me (in particular) to a harmonious state again. If he on the other hand (provided he'd still have one) asked me to correct the position of my weapon, then it would have been my duty to correct it, since _I_ then disrupted _his_ harmony with the universe (etc. etc.). From: Aldo Bleeker ------------------------------------ Chuck Gordon wrote: > > Reference the fellow moving someone's weapon during a seminar: > > Sheesh. He's lucky he didn't draw back a bloody stub. Talk about breaches > of etiquette! How about: NEVER EVER touch someone else's weapons without > permission!!! EVER!!! I've had to restrain myself from getting a little > ballistic over people grabbing my weapons who didn't know better, but > they were just being ignorant, they WEREN'T trying to teach ME a point of > etiquette. Oh boy. > > Sorry for the rant. It's been a tough day so far ... Yea and amen to that. The nerve of some people! We are taught to treat the bokken like a real sword and it therefore follows it is *never* allowed, for anybody, to touch it without permission! I have been practising archery (the olympic variety) and it was considered a capital offence to touch a bow without permission. It *is* a weapon! (BTW, it wasn't wise to do so, because a bow costs something like $500-$1000, so you wouldn't want to risk damaging it, would you?) (Deep breath!) Anyway, we too bow with the blade towards us and lay down the bokken to the left, blade facing away. If it is not needed, we place it with the blade away from the kamiza, hilt towards O Sensei. It is considered bad form to threaten the Founder! Sensie is a real stickler for this. He once checked the bokkens in the carrier case to see if the blad was facing away, even though they weren't visible in the case. Subject: Bokken and Jo Question To: Multiple recipients of list AIKIDO-L Content-Length: 530 X-Lines: 11 Status: RO Interesting discussion so far on this subject. Here's one for sempai and senseis on AIKIDO-L to ponder -- We have a student who has the use of only his left arm (his right arm is paralyzed and is in a sling). In consultation with one sensei, we developed a way for him to grip the ken so he can practice bokken. However, we haven't yet developed a clear path for him to work with the jo. Any thoughts or advice on ways a single-armed aikidoist can work with weapons would be welcome. Peace, Aviv Goldsmith Reno Aikido Co-Op From: Charles Yeomans -------------------------------------------------- >Interesting discussion so far on this subject. > >Here's one for sempai and senseis on AIKIDO-L to ponder -- We have a student >who has the use of only his left arm (his right arm is paralyzed and is in a >sling). In consultation with one sensei, we developed a way for him to grip >the ken so he can practice bokken. However, we haven't yet developed a clear >path for him to work with the jo. Any thoughts or advice on ways a >single-armed aikidoist can work with weapons would be welcome. > I have this idea that the best part of weapons training for an aikidoka is empty-hand v. weapon. Without a weapon, you're left with only timing and body movement as protection; thus this practice allows you to work on these things in a sort of isolation. So for your student, perhaps he could use a hanbo -- a baton-sized stick -- for practice. I think that what matters is that the student has a weapon with which to attack you. Charles Yeomans >Aloha, > >Rich The trick is to reach for the katana with your thumb first. The thumb pushes the tsuba so that the ha rotates toward you and the saya snaps into your palm. Continuation of this thumb motion as you grasp the saya ends up in the tsuba being pushed away from the saya for a very quick draw, or you hook the thumb over the tsuba to keep the blade in the saya. From: Krystal Locke -------------------------------------- > >If you're right-handed! Is the protocol different for left-handed aikidoka, >or does the assumption of right-handedness dictate that everyone place the >hilt to the left? > >Cady Goldfield >cadyg@elderhostel.org > > As a left handed swordsperson, I can tell you that, in my experience, there are no left handed swordspeople. As far as Aikido, and other Japanese sword arts, I imagine, goes, left handedness is trained out of you for sword stuff. A couple reasons... One, left handedness is almost universally seen as evil, unclean, in most cultures, at least historically. This is very true in Japan. Consider the proper way to cross one's gi. The left side is bad, and shouldn't touch your body, at least, not 'til you're dead and it doesn't matter. A practical reason for not training in sword left handed is that in a left hand forward sword grip, the heart is more exposed to one's opponent than in a right hand forward grip. Frustrating for those like me who are mutants, but true... From: Hiroaki Izumi ------------------------------------------------- This is in regards to the bokken & jo discussion going on. It's a little story from down on Texas way. Once, at this budo dojo, there was a man practicing Kendo with the many folk there. Everyone knew he was Yakuza but he was a nice enough fellow, though rather a bit old fashioned. Everyone figured he had been sent to America for some slight transgression in Japan or to cool off after some problems with the law. His term in the USA ended and he went back to Japan. A year later, he return to Texas, but he was all broken up and his knees were no longer as functional as they used to be. It must have been a very bad beating. He could no longer function in the Kendo arena so he took up Iaido. One day, in the dojo, as he was practicing Iaido, a new judoka, trying to get to the judo area walked behind the Yakuza. He inadvertently stepped over the man's katana (live blade) as he passed. The Yakuza, in the wink of an eye, stood up while drawing the sword and pressing the judoka against the wall with the katana against the poor soul's neck. People nearby heard the Yakuza whisper to the judoka, "Since you are --------Sensei's student, I will not kill you this time, but if you dishonour me in such a way again, I will cut you in half." Or something very close to that. Needless to say, the new judoka never showed up at the dojo again. The Yakuza left after some time too. Bonking a person on the head as a lesson to be careful with sword ettiquette is not so bad. It's a better lesson than having your head or hand cut off. From: Neil McKellar ---------------------------------------------John Fong writes: > In regards to 1/, a fellow student went to a seminar. While sitting in > seiza, the aikidoka sitting next to her reached over and flipped the > bokken so the blade edge pointed towards her. He stated that proper > etiquette was to have the edge pointing towards yourself. Based on my > limited experience I think he was wrong. There are many different ways to place the sword when standing or sitting. Every placement has it's own justification. The most basic rule is two-fold: Never point the blade or tip of the weapon at the instructor when bowing. Handle the weapon _exactly_ as the instructor does. Since every school is different (even within organizations) the second rule is quite critical and will generally prevent the first from being broken. The second rule is also a good one to follow during class. :-) OIL FOR TREATING WEAPONS ======================= From: KwolekL -------------------------------- Greetings all: m.wise3@genie.geis.com wrote last December a receipe for wood weapon = polish. It follows for all that didn't get it then: "Hiroshi Ikeda recommends a 1:1:1 mixture of beeswax, tung oil and = linseed oil. Mix all three and heat over indirect heat until they = combine. Allow to cool. =3DCAUTION=3D: DO NOT HEAT OVER OPEN FLAME! Beeswax has a very low flash = point and can easily ignite. Use an electric burner and a double boiler. = Mix in a well ventilated area." I'd like to try this mix as the winters here are particularly harsh, but = unfortunately I can't find the ingredients. I went all over Prague, (yes, = translating these WERE interesting and required a professional translator = :-) but no luck, so I thought maybe someone in the cyberdojo has a good = source. Does anyone out there know where I can get these ingredients by mail in = the USA or Europe? Maybe a musical instrument or fine furniture maker's = catalog? MAKING WEAPONS =============== From: Hal Davis ----------------------------------- >There was a lot of discussion the last time this came up over whether you could >use modern materials, such as graphite, fibreglass, or plastics to make >acceptable boken. The general concensus seemed to be "no, the feel will be >wrong", but I wonder if a layer of 'glass and epoxy over a wood core might work? >This way a cheaper and less acceptable wood might be made to work for a daily >practice weapon. It wouldn't be pretty, but it might be servicable. > > -- Mike "still unpacking...the shop comes later" Bartman -- One of the aikido gear shops (Bu-Jin?) is marketing what I believe they call Dymondwood jos. I think it's particle board with a whole bunch of resin. Supposed to be quite dense and extremely durable. I'd a thunk they'd feel dead, but our head honcho (the leader of our ryu) likes them, and I believe he's marketing either the same thing or something similar. I've never held one. From: Joe McParland -------------------------------------------- Dymondwood Jo: "The newest addition to Bu Jin's collection of high-quality wooden weapons is the Dymondwood Jo. A high density composite, consisting of hardwood veneers and resin, is pressure treated to create a totally homogenous material. The extreme hardness of this jo (bending strength is 27,000 psi) makes it resistant to unusual wear and abrasion, and the natural, bright wood grain requires no further finishing. Available with or without brass rings [look like little end-caps around the ends of the jo]." With Brass Rings $80.00 ppd Without Brass Rings $70.00 ppd My sensei has for, as long as I can remember, had one of these jos up there on the rack. I've "played" with it once in a while when I would not bring my own and, well, it feels like a jo staff. I thought it was fairly unique looking with the brass rings and all, but $80? $10 extra for the rings? Well I'm biased on the other end. Our sensei is a ma equipment supplier as well, and we receive discounts on our own weapons, uniforms, etc. So, our jos and bokkens each run around $11. Fully functional, not so pricey to scare off newbies who are told, "Eventually you'll need a pair of those." When whacked against each other, there may be a minor depression formed, but that's jsut character as far as I'm concerned. After all, we're not using our jos to disarm a live sword! Someday I'd like a nice hardwood, pretty to look at set of weapons, but thats for a day when I have a few dollars. For now, $80 is a bit outrageous! From: Hal Davis -------------------------------------- >We travelled about 100 hundred miles and visited over 20 places before finding a >shop in Worcester that had a few ash handles. > >Unfortunately, the longest piece that Rob can turn is about 4 foot, so we had a >long job of sanding :-(. > >I still toy with the idea of mail-shoting the timber merchants to try and find >somewhere that would turn me a me a few Jos out of ash. > >Mikel > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Cummins/Aikido.htm I can help. First, most long tool handles, including broomhandles, are not turned on a lathe. You give them a couple of passes with a half-round router bit. Second, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I know a local craftsman who has a lathe that will turn out pieces AT LEAST 54" long (that's how long I wanted mine). He chose to create the jos with the router, and then he put them on the lathe and attacked them with a belt sander to make them nice. Unfortunately, there was also a support thingie in the middle that wore a minor ring around the middle. Took a bit of hand sanding to get it off. I haven't shopped around, but this guy will make a jo out of any kind of wood you want, and if we're talking quantity (I think at least 20 jos) then the labor would be about $20 U.S. each (it would be an incredibly expensive piece of wood that would cost over $7 per jo). And I have no idea what shipping would cost. But if you are able to find someone with a table or radial-arm saw and a router, then find your local hardwood lumber yard and start playing From: Jun Akiyama ------------------------------------ On Sat, 25 May 1996, Joe McParland wrote: > Dymondwood Jo: > > My sensei has for, as long as I can remember, had one of these jos up there > on the rack. I've "played" with it once in a while when I would not bring > my own and, well, it feels like a jo staff. I've had one of the Dymondwood jo for over a year now, and I'm not very pleased with it. It's basically a very, very, very dense and heave resin-impregnated jo. I (and one of our yudansha who has one as well) notice that it tends to be a bit "sticky" because of the resin. Normal wood will absorb some of your skin oil after use and will become nice and smooth; the resin doesn't do this. I've found the jo to be uncooperative when sliding through the hand -- it sticks a lot. If you want to get a bit esoterical, it doesn't seem to want to transmit energy through it, unlike real wood (which would feel "alive"). However, I pretty much feel it's indestructible. If I ever need something with which to pry open a car or smash a concrete pipe, I can probably use the thing. I am very pleased, though, with Bujin's aikido top... From: Joe McParland ------------------------------------------------- Jun & the Dymonwood Jo: Well, my sensei's had this jo around for sometime and many have handled it. It lacks, then, the stickiness you spoke of - but I really don't know how old the jo is or how many hands its been through. When I say this particular jo feels like a jo, I mean just that - nothing special, especially for the price, and especially given that I am not taken to smashing concrete pipes with it! Ha! When I first purchased my $11 El Cheapo Jo, it was a little rough and I'd occasionally pick up a splinter. But, one day there were no more splinters, and the hand's oils and sweat began to take hold. No the jo is *really mine*, and most of the time I can simply recognize it's "feel" given another similar jo to compare with. I read once that the *authentic* Japanese jos were made over a long period of time, cut, shaped, and then naturally dried - rolling them a bit every so often to allow for even drying. No tung oil or any thing else applied - only the oil from your hands durring use. Hardwood veneers, resin impregnated, pressure treated? Seems to go against the whole tradition. But, then again, in a sense today a jo is nothing more than a piece of wood! From: Hal Davis ----------------------------------- At 01:02 PM 5/22/96 -0400, you wrote: >>Hello All: >> >>Just curious. How many of you make your own weapons (bokken, jo, >>tanto)? I want to try my hand at it but I'm not sure what type of wood >>would be the best (i.e. hardest but not too brittle, etc.). Any >>suggestions? >> >>Thanks in advance! >> >>Mark The last time I saw this go around the list, the opinion was (1) Japanese heartwood white oak is the only weapons-grade wood there is; and (2) you can't get Japanese heartwood white oak. I didn't like that answer. I guess I could work the wood myself, but I don't have any serious equipment. I thought that hickory would be tough enough (it's widely used for tool handles), but I was concerned about the coarseness of the grain. I went to a local hardwood store, and found that they don't have hickory (they don't grow in Texas), but that they do have pecan, which is the state tree, and it pecan wood is considered "a" hickory. (I don't understand, but maybe someone can explain why pecan is a hickory, but hickory isn't a pecan). Anyway, I bought a block of pecan and gave it to a local woodworker. He cut it into 1" square pieces and then ran them over with a 1" half-round router. He then put them on his lathe and took a belt sander to them. Voila. Pecan jos, 54" long (just right for me). I sanded them some more, gave them two coats of tung oil, and I am exceedingly pleased with the result. Turns out there is a higher grade of pecan that would not have had the pinhead knots I have, and if I do it again, I'll step up to that grade. While getting my jos made, I discussed wood with the craftsman. He had a book comparing different woods for strenth (measured several different ways), density, and other characteristics. I had him make some more jos for me, but this time from purpleheart (very dense) and I had him use a 7/8" router. They came out simply stunning after tung oil, but I noticed a problem which may have been due to the piece of wood chosen for me. The grain of the wood was not uniformly in one direction, and I have grain on a couple of the sticks that goes completely across the diameter of the stick within about four inches of length. It looks to me like one good whack and the end breaks off. Similarly, another place where there is end grain at the surface near the middle of the stick, I can't seem to smooth it sufficiently with sandpaper and it has developed a flat spot. I'm afraid I'll pick up a splinter there. I spent $120 for four jos, one turned out great, one was B+, and the other two are oddities. I'll need to ask the craftsman whether I got a bad piece or if purpleheart is normally this way. I wound up with a half-dozen of the pecan jos, and I took them to the dojo for my friends I have trained with quite a bit but who did not have good jos (and also for sensei and his number 1). I whacked 'em to custom length on the spot, took a rasp to bevel the cut end, and used a laundry marker to put their initials on the end. They made nice presents. I haven't a clue how to make bokkens. From: This space intentionally left blank ------------------------------------------------------------- >The last time I saw this go around the list, the opinion was (1) Japanese >heartwood white oak is the only weapons-grade wood there is; and (2) you >can't get Japanese heartwood white oak. Very likely. The Japanese import a lot of wood. I doubt that they export any at all...except as finished products. >I didn't like that answer. I guess I could work the wood myself, but I don't >have any serious equipment. You can work most wood just fine with sandpaper...if you are careful and have a lot of time! ;^) All the shop equipment does is speed things up and make repeatability possible without requiring an almost magical level of ability. It also lets you mess up a lot more wood in a day than you could possibly manage with handtools... >I thought that hickory would be tough enough >(it's widely used for tool handles), but I was concerned about the >coarseness of the grain. I went to a local hardwood store, and found that >they don't have hickory (they don't grow in Texas), but that they do have >pecan, which is the state tree, and it pecan wood is considered "a" hickory. >(I don't understand, but maybe someone can explain why pecan is a hickory, >but hickory isn't a pecan). The two aren't even close. Hickory is hickory, pecan is pecan. Both are reasonably hard, but the characteristics and appearance aren't otherwise similar from what I've seen. Pecan's surface hardness is much lower, the grain is different (pecan looks more like oak, with lots of little "holes"), and I'm reasonably sure that hickory is stronger and more flexible. >Anyway, I bought a block of pecan and gave it to a local woodworker. He cut >it into 1" square pieces and then ran them over with a 1" half-round router. >He then put them on his lathe and took a belt sander to them. Voila. Pecan >jos, 54" long (just right for me). I sanded them some more, gave them two >coats of tung oil, and I am exceedingly pleased with the result. Turns out >there is a higher grade of pecan that would not have had the pinhead knots I >have, and if I do it again, I'll step up to that grade. Sounds reasonable to me! I wonder how Lignum Vitae would do? It's pretty expensive and hard to find, but it's hard and strong (used to be used for propellor shaft bearings in ships). Brazilian Rosewood would be beautiful, very strong and hard, but also very expensive and hard to find these days...especially in sizes needed for weapons. Yew might be good too. It's the wood of choice for longbows, due to the strength and flexibility, but may be too light and will certainly be hard to find in the size needed (yew trees tend to be gnarly, not straight, and you'll have to fight the bow makers for it ;^). >I haven't a clue how to make bokkens. My guess is cut the shape from a board (watch grain directions!), then round it with the router or a sureform tool (sort of like a file, but with little cutting teeth stamped through thin metal rather than ridges or teeth in thicker metal like a file or rasp), and sand. There was a lot of discussion the last time this came up over whether you could use modern materials, such as graphite, fibreglass, or plastics to make acceptable boken. The general concensus seemed to be "no, the feel will be wrong", but I wonder if a layer of 'glass and epoxy over a wood core might work? This way a cheaper and less acceptable wood might be made to work for a daily practice weapon. It wouldn't be pretty, but it might be servicable. ETTIQUETTE FOR HANDING WEAPONS OVER ==================================== From: Jun Akiyama ------------------------------------ On Mon, 13 May 1996, PHILL wrote: > Before I go... on the matter of weapon etiquette, can anyone tell me please > what the correct way(s) to hand over (to another student) bokken and Jo are? When Don Angier came around to our dojo a while back, he demonstrated their way of handing over a bokken (or a sword -- they also use live swords in their school). 1) The person handing over the sword holds the bottom two inches or so of the hilt of the bokken with the right hand. 2) The person then brought the right hand (holding sword) to his heart (like in the pledge of allegiance) for a moment, then straightened out the arm toward the person taking the sword. The blade actually faced the person taking the sword, if I remember correctly. 3) The person taking the sword, also with a straight arm, put his left hand at the _top_ of the hilt. At this point, both people have a hand on the hilt; the giver at the bottom, the taker at the top of the hilt. 4) When "deemed" OK, the taker nodded his head, and the giver let go of the sword, and the taker retracts the sword back. I believe the blade faces the person who takes the sword because it's then hard for the person taking the sword to "use" the sword against the other person. To be honest, I can't for the life of me remember if 3) is done with the left hand as I wrote, or with the right. Maybe someone knows? Don Angier's aikijutsu school is VERY traditional. He takes only about six students at any time. The student doesn't even get to _draw_ his sword for the first year; he carries it in his scabbard for a year. (I wasn't trying to be sexist when I used "he" up above -- Don Angier does not take female students...) I don't know about all of this. When I have a sword over to the person, I hand it hilt forward, blade up, and diagonal towards the person's left hand. Maybe I'd be dead by now if I were back in Japan... From: Damien Morton ------------------------------------- >Before I go... on the matter of weapon etiquette, can anyone tell me please >what the correct way(s) to hand over (to another student) bokken and Jo are? > >Phill. The correct way would be with one hand or the other, or both, to place the weapon, pointing one way or the other, into the other persons hand (or hands) in a manner so that they dont drop it or feel threatened by you giving the weapon to them. It is not important that you face north, south, east, or west, nor is it important if you bow or not, and no silly hats are required to be worn. You do not need to be a member of any association, nor do you need to wear any god damned badges. It is, however, important that you hand them the weapon with the intention of handing them a WEAPON, though in the case of a bokken, which is really a piece of wood in the shape of a sword, one could be forgiven for confusing it with a piece of wood and handing it to someone in the manner of handing them a piece of wood. A Jo, which is also a piece of wood, sometimes is confused for a weapon, and sometimes for a piece of wood, so it too can be handled in a variety of ways, including being handled like a piece of wood. A Jo also makes a good walking stick, but this is a different kettle of fish entirely and i will write at length about it another day. From: Krystal Locke -------------------------------------- >Robert said: >> I think it is possible to hand it [the knife] back in such a manner >that uke cant immediately attack. > >Anyone suggest the correct manner to do this? I've seen it done by >laying the knife on your open palms, blade towards the reciever >and bow and present it. This is sort of the ettiquette for a medievel >feudal vassel presenting a weapon to his overlord but may well not >be japanese ettiquette! > >Tricia >.. > > And it doesn't sound like good martial arts either. As far as tanto goes, after a pin and takeaway, our school typically puts the tanto on the mat several feet(3-5ish?) from uke, and walk away from both, facing uke as much as possible. Sometime, depending on the mood of the uke(are they popping up fast and eager?), we will slide it even further away, so that uke has to walk 10 or so feet to get the thing. Great way to buy breathing time during tests. If we're playful, we put the tanto on uke's back, high enough so they cant easily reach it, and watch them wiggle to get it. Also while doing tachidori, we hand the sword back in a pretty specific way, which would be okay for tanto, cept tanto are smaller and faster. After a throw/disarm, we maintain a very agressive connection, point of sword aimed at uke's throat while they're getting up, and until they show they wont jump in. Then, while keeping the bokken pointed directly at uke, we turn it over so that the blade is up, and the point is down towards uke's knee level, both hands stay on as uke has to reach across the blade to get to the hilt, they grab with one hand, nage lets go and steps back, maintaining awareness. Looks good and seems to please Sensei. From: "V.A. Burrows" ------------------------------------------------- I too have been seen a wide range of differences in the forms for returning weapons after tanto-tori, jo-tori and tachi-tori techniques. I have seen all of the varieties of returing tanto already discussed. I have been instructed >not< to lay the tanto on the mat, as this is >practice<, but that one >does< need to be aware and cautious when returning it. I personally like the effect during demonstrations of leaving the tanto on the mat; it makes the point of complete control of the blade very obvious to an audience. I have seen demo's in which the blade is tossed or thrown to the ground - I do NOT like the appearace of that (but, hey, de gustibus non disputandam). We currently instruct students to return the tanto hilt-towards the uke, blade upwards, holding the back (underneath), arm fuly extended, and in a wide hanmi stance prepared to rapidly withdraw. I have seen jo returned (after jo-tori) from one or two hands: Style a: hold the jo with one hand by its center, extend the arm, let the jo slide through the hand as uke takes it; Style b: hold the jo horizontal, both hands palms up, separated by around 12 inches, bow as uke bows and takes the jo, also palms up, hands together; Style c: extend the jo two-handed as in mune-tsuki, uke takes the jo into the same position, with no crossing over of uke's and nage's hands. I have been instructed to be careful when using style b, that uke take the jo with hands together, other wise they can very rapidly shoot one hand forward and whack you in the side of the head We currently instruct student to use style b. I have seen returns of bokken after tachi-tori (both with and without finishing cuts) similar to style b above (blade is up), and style c above (hilt forward, blade up). I have never seen a bokken laid on the mat for return. From: Huy Quang Nguyen ------------------------------------------- On Thu, 23 May 1996, This space intentionally left blank wrote: > >Robert said: > >> I think it is possible to hand it [the knife] back in such a manner > >that uke cant immediately attack. > >Tricia > > It's more normal to present a blade with the hilt/grip facing the reciever. I > don't think either will work to prevent an immediate attack though. If the hilt > is facing the reciever he can grasp it and stab. If the reverse is the case he > can grasp it and slash. > > The only really safe way would be to place the knife at a distance from the > reciever, then step away as he approaches to pick it up...or to place the knife > in a scabard with a puzzle locking mechanism that takes time to manipulate! > > -- Mike Ok, coming from an Iwama-styleish dojo... and from the couple times we've done tanto dori heres my $.02 cents. So far, i haven't seen anyone do the "cut the wrist after kotegaeshi" thing, but i do notice alot of time after a pin we place the tip of the tanto on the ukes back. I think its just a way to keep the uke down as you get up and move away from them. So if you're backing off and they decide to jump you again.. boom ... knife in back. Thats the only real instance i've seen anything like it that i can remember. But i wouldn't be surprised if the wrist thing was only meant to do damage. There's probably a reason behind it that we dont' know of.. i'll ask sensei tonight and see what he says... most likely he'll tell me its just to maim the person. As for handing the blade back, you would do it in a way that the uke could use it against you right away. It's just like keeping a bokken on your left side... you have to fumble around with it before you can really use it. When doing jiyuwaza, we normall toss or slide the tanto across the mat so the uke has to run for a bit to get it. It's the same reasoning... takes a little fumbling around before they can get to it. I would think tossing it away is alot more effective than handing it to them. While we're on the subject, reminds me of one day that i asked our sensei about using tanto's on the street. My question was that if you had a knife on you and were to be attacked by several thugs... you wouldn't neccessarily not use the knife because you've only been training in tanto dori. So he proceeded to show the class a demonstration of all the things you can do with a tanto as nage. It's pretty nasty and to give you an idea, just replace any damaging atemi that you do with a fist with a knife. ACK! Swiss cheese. BUt one interesting thing comes to mind tho... he said that if you had to cut someone's wrist, say when they came in for a punch, you can cut the TOP side. Cutting the top side will make your opponent bleed and hurt, rather than cutting the bottom side where they'll bleed to death. When i say top side i'm referring to the same side as the backside of your palm. I havne't seen anyone cut the wrist after a kotegaeshi pin... which side are they cutting on? From: This space intentionally left blank ----------------------------------------------------------- >Robert said: >> I think it is possible to hand it [the knife] back in such a manner >that uke cant immediately attack. > >Anyone suggest the correct manner to do this? I've seen it done by >laying the knife on your open palms, blade towards the reciever >and bow and present it. This is sort of the ettiquette for a medievel >feudal vassel presenting a weapon to his overlord but may well not >be japanese ettiquette! > >Tricia It's more normal to present a blade with the hilt/grip facing the reciever. I don't think either will work to prevent an immediate attack though. If the hilt is facing the reciever he can grasp it and stab. If the reverse is the case he can grasp it and slash. The only really safe way would be to place the knife at a distance from the reciever, then step away as he approaches to pick it up...or to place the knife in a scabard with a puzzle locking mechanism that takes time to manipulate! From: "Cowham Robert (Exchange)" ------------------------------------------------------ ------- Dave Whiteland said: In his thoughtful post (in the Vigilantism thread), Joe commented >Lastly, I have never seen a finishing blow practiced in our dojo or any >other aikido dojo I have visited. Never. I have seen this, and not infrequently - particularly in knife techniques. Most recently at an Iwama-ryu seminar, where the sensei emphatically cut the wrist of the secured hand *after* disarming and pinning with kote-gaeshi (i.e. as an end to the pin), every time. Another of my sensei who comes from a "Chibaesque" background, commonly does the same thing, so it's not just an Iwama-ryu habit. Obviously, if this is the way the sensei show it then I do not/would not criticise it as martial form, but I don't like it in aikido. (Luckily for everyone it doesn't matter what I like.) There are two things that I hate to see after a well-executed kote-gaeshi which has taken the knife and pinned the attacker; one is cutting/"killing" the attacker with the knife, the other is *handing* the knife back to them. Both ends of the scale, I suppose. ---------- I have seen this too - demonstrating a cut - and put it down to zanshin. My interpretation has always been that nage is showing what they could do if they were so minded, rather than what they would do. It (the "cut") always tends to be done slowly and deliberately when I have seen it. The key part is the zanshin, demonstrating full focus and attention after the technique has finished. One variation is touching the *back* of the blade to the back of the neck after a pin, and I suspect this would probably have a very salutary effect on a real attacker, without endangering them! I would expect zanshin to be shown while handing the knife back as well - i.e. not just grasping the whole blade and offering it which often happens, potentially removing a few fingers! I think it is possible to hand it back in a manner such that uke can't immediately attack, though I agree the placing on the mat is a good solution. From: Dave Whiteland ------------------------------------------ In his thoughtful post (in the Vigilantism thread), Joe commented >Lastly, I have never seen a finishing blow practiced in our dojo or any >other aikido dojo I have visited. Never. I have seen this, and not infrequently - particularly in knife techniques. Most recently at an Iwama-ryu seminar, where the sensei emphatically cut the wrist of the secured hand *after* disarming and pinning with kote-gaeshi (i.e. as an end to the pin), every time. Another of my sensei who comes from a "Chibaesque" background, commonly does the same thing, so it's not just an Iwama-ryu habit. Obviously, if this is the way the sensei show it then I do not/would not criticise it as martial form, but I don't like it in aikido. (Luckily for everyone it doesn't matter what I like.) There are two things that I hate to see after a well-executed kote-gaeshi which has taken the knife and pinned the attacker; one is cutting/"killing" the attacker with the knife, the other is *handing* the knife back to them. Both ends of the scale, I suppose. If the knife is used to cut (and cut=kill here) then it seems like flushing the preceding application of aikido down the pan; you may feel such action is justified under given circumstances but the point is that in a dojo ideal form is being demonstrated without the context of circumstance. On the other hand, handing the knife back is the opposite problem - a dangerous habit that arises precisely because it is a safe thing to do in (most) dojo. My personal preference is for the knife to be placed on the mat for subsequent retrieval by the attacker. It suggests (to me) the perfect form of taking nothing but the aggression from the attacker; after all, the knife is theirs. (Let me emphasise "perfect form", not recommeded course of action outside, OK?) What is being taught out there in the wide world of aikido variation with regard to what happens to the tanto, afterwards? Just curious. I mean in the demonstrated form, not the "on the street" application ( I already have a pretty good idea where many of you would like to stick the knife if someone poked it at you outisde the dojo...)